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19 Safety Net

Things Rich Hates 

Get ready for an episode full of strong opinions. Our host Rich Mackey has been around the marketing industry for quite a while. Through his decades of experience, he's learned what he likes and what he really just hates. This is one of our best episodes yet, so join us as we dive deep into Rich's marketing pain points.

Safety Net

This week’s cocktail is a Safety Net which is a beer flip. This recipe was created by Marina Holter, the lead bartender at The Whistler in Chicago. I think this drink might fall into Rich’s final list of things he hates….


  • 2 oz. Amontillado Sherry
  • .75 oz Cynar
  • .75 oz. spiced honey syrup
  • 1 whole egg
  • 4 oz. of your favorite IPA beer


1.  Combine all ingredients in a cocktail shaker and dry shake vigorously.

2.  Add a couple of ice cubes to the shaker and shake vigorously again, until the mixture is frothy.

3.  Strain into glass.

4. Top with beer and serve.

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Episode Transcript

Catelin:     Well, let's get to it, Rich Mackey.

Rich:          Absolutely, Catelin. I hear a rumor that I am the special guest today.

Catelin:     You are always special, but today it's extra special.

Rich:          And I will tell you, I did not look at the official prep notes for this episode.

Catelin:     Yes.

Rich:          I just have my own notes. Since this one is Things I Hate, I actually had to narrow it down to just four things.

Catelin:     Yep.

Rich:          But I also heard a little rumor that the cocktail may fit with the theme of Things Rich Hates.

Catelin:     Yes.

Rich:          And I have no idea what it is, so enlighten us.

Catelin:     Well, I would love to. Today we are, I don't know if we're enjoying it, but we've got a Safety Net on the menu. And it's a beer flip because we are in flip season.

Rich:          Okay.

Catelin:     So the recipe is two ounces of Amantiato Sherry, three quarter ounces of Cynar, which I hate, three quarter's ounce spiced honey syrup, one whole egg and four ounces of IPA.

Rich:          Okay, the honey syrup I'm good with.

Catelin:     The rest, just pitch it out the window.

Rich:          What is Cynar? You hate it. I don't think I've ever heard of that.

Catelin:     It's an Amaro.

Rich:          Oh, okay. I might be okay with it.

Catelin:     It is like .. my husband made Cynar flip a couple weeks ago, the weird week between Christmas and New Year and you don't know what time it is and what day it is and you're just eating cookies for breakfast. So he made it and it was eggnog, but with extra. So the flavor profile, I sat I think probably for a half an hour trying to figure out the different notes.

Rich:          Okay, well we don't have time for that.

Catelin:     We don't have time for that. And mostly I was just like, "This is stupid." Because I really like nosing and tasting and figuring out what stuff is, and I couldn't.

Rich:          All right, so it sounds like definitely one thing in there that I love, the honey. And spiced honey is fantastic. We may be kind of neutral on the Amaro Cynar thing. The rest of it, disgusting the whole thing together. Please don't ever serve me that. So what makes it a flip?

Catelin:     The whole egg makes it a flip.

Rich:          Oh, whole egg instead of just egg whites for a little foam. Ugh.

Catelin:     Whole egg cocktails, I'm going to convert you. I thought it was weird too, but if you blend it up right, it's just like full bodied and creamy and thick. Oh, so good. Yeah, it's weird.

Rich:          I grew up in the whole raw egg or two in your Orange Julius.

Catelin:     See, and that's weird to me. I don't know if I-

Rich:          It made it so foamy and delicious. But then they made it illegal for you to get the serve the raw egg. So for a while you could bring your own raw egg to the Orange Julius place.

Catelin:     So you're just carrying an egg into the mall.

Rich:          Well yes, Orange Julius were a destination event when I was a child. And so you would go there and you would take your eggs with you. And then they made that illegal, so you couldn't even bring your own egg. So then of course the recipe hits the-

Catelin:     Internet or cook book.

Rich:          I don't really think it was the internet, a cookbook probably, yes. Or maybe it was in the back of Reader's Digest or something. Who knows? Red Book Magazine, one of those.

Catelin:     That sounds right.

Rich:          And so we just made them at home. So it was actually a Christmas thing that we would do. We would always make Oranges Julius. We did not do that this year, though. But we also were all in Omaha, but we were like three houses. And so we kind of ...

Catelin:     Split up. Yeah.

Rich:          Breakfast wasn't really like together. We got together after that. But anyway, I digress. So hate the drink. That's fantastic. And I understand we're getting into other things that I hate. So let's just cut the intro short and do it.

Catelin:     I think so.

Rich:          All right.

Catelin:     Enjoy your dance break.

Rich:          All right, we're back, but I'm not the host.

Catelin:     I mean, I think you are.

Rich:          Kind of, I guess. We're just having a discussion.

Catelin:     We are. So you didn't know anything about the cocktail. I don't know anything about what's coming down the pipe of what you hate.

Rich:          Because-

Catelin:     I could probably take some educated guesses, but I also don't know how bitchy you're going to be, so.

Rich:          Well, not too bad. I ran some things by Zach earlier. He said, I can't just say that I hate people because it's not really true. I hate people in aggregate. I like individual people and small groups of people that I know.

Catelin:     I also don't know how that relates to marketing.

Rich:          I mean, yeah, it's really kind of an awkward thing. Also hate olives. And fun fact ...

Catelin:     All olives?

Rich:          Yeah, pretty much just trash. I could do a green olive sliced on a pizza.

Catelin:     How do you feel about tapenade?

Rich:          Oh god. Oh, it's just chopped olives. No, god, no.

Catelin:     Shoot. You're going to be real disappointed about that holiday party menu.

Rich:          Well, I figure I have a little veto power on it don't I? Or there can be a tapenade alternative, because there are actually multiple people who do not olives.

Catelin:     Oh yeah.

Rich:          Including Producer Zach.

Catelin:     Really? Shoot.

Rich:          Riley likes olives though. She told me that this morning.

Catelin:     Yeah, what if are it's fair numbers of ...

Rich:          Just have an alternative, like a little hummus or something.

Catelin:     Well, there will be also hummus.

Rich:          I mean, if pentad is part of a tray or something, I'm fine. If it's like you're serving me chicken and the tapenade is the only seasoning on the chicken, please don't do that.

Catelin:     Okay, got it, got it, got it, got it.

Rich:          Yeah, as long as I can easily avoid it and still have a nice dinner, totally fine.

Catelin:     Okay. Yeah, there will be alternative choices.

Rich:          Yeah, so those were vetoed by Zach. He said those were not good, but I still got them into the podcast because I can. But we're not allowed to talk about them at length. So I'm going to start with one of my biggest pet peeves and things that I hate. And in my career, I've been very gracious about this and I've also been the biggest dick about this that you've ever seen in your life.

Catelin:     I can't wait.

Rich:          I can't lack of planning on your part that creates an emergency emergency on my part. And I think it just goes back to lack of planning. And don't get me wrong, I can fly by the seat of my pants with the best of them. I still have a plan in my head, I just haven't shared it with anybody else.

Catelin:     How many times have I been the victim of the plan in your head?

Rich:          Occasionally.

Catelin:     I've been like, "Oh, that is interesting information to have now."

Rich:          I just hit Jesse with it. He's like, "Oh, okay." One of them, a project for client I'm like, "I think this is something that Megan can do." And he's like, "Yeah, but okay." And I'm like, "Oh, just telling you."

Catelin:     Tomorrow it needs to be done tomorrow.

Rich:          It's not happening today. It can happen Monday, Tuesday, whenever. But it seems like something that would be good for her. But yeah, so for me, this is really, even with our greatest clients or our best clients or our most favorite clients, we're a little bit more forgiving if it happens irregularly. But with the clients that email at 4:59 on a Friday with something that urgently has to be done right this minute. And part of our culture is like we plan our days, we plan our weeks and work time is work time and off time is off time.

Catelin:     And we're done. We go home.

Rich:          And also when it's not really an emergency, that'd be like the tag on here. When I look at it and go, "This could be done on Monday. This is not an emergency." Or my favorite, the email gets forwarded to you that they had two weeks ago that was due today. And they forward it to you five minutes before their boss expects it. So I get that it happens, like I said.

Catelin:     Right.

Rich:          And occasionally one of those. And honestly, if you own it, I'm good.

Catelin:     Yeah like hey, I'm really sorry. This totally slipped through.

Rich:          I completely dropped the ball on this. I really need your help so I look good, blah, blah, blah. We're all about making people look good, and that plays to our egos. It's fantastic. But the stuff we do generally takes time and thought and sometimes has to be assigned to somebody else. I don't do everything, thank God. So yeah, that's one mine. So I know you've run into that as well.

Catelin:     Yeah, I think what has helped me is knowing who ... I mean, because this is the bottom line ... who pays us for that and who doesn't, too. That there are certain people that compensate us for a fire drill. And so I have no problem dropping everything for that half hour, 45 minutes while I helped them figure something out because they will pay for every minute of our time.

Rich:          And everywhere else you go, there's a rush charge. I ordered new glasses when mine broke, the ones I'm wearing actually, from Warby Parker. And it was going to be seven to 10 days, but for $25 they could give them to me in five. And it was like 10% of the whole order.

Catelin:     It's a convenience charge.

Rich:          And I get it. And we've actually, in our new project management system, I think you've seen it, we have a rush charge rate card. And it's a one and a quarter or one and a half times open rate because like you said, if I have to ask somebody on to do something on a weekend ...

Catelin:     It throws off the whole ...

Rich:          And I got to make it worth their while. So that's my biggest one. And even with us, we had talked earlier and had a great epiphany moment. I don't know if we talked about it on the podcast. But when we were talking about when we sat down with Zach after a podcast and said, "Hey Zach, we need more prep for these. We really need a long-term plan for what we're recording. We need a Word document with the cocktail and all this stuff." Because we were flying by the seat of our pants, and it was fun.

Catelin:     But it also ahead of time felt very stressful.

Rich:          And sometimes we would sit down and I think in that one, there's other stuff going on. We've got things in our heads. And you sat down and were visibly frustrated about, I don't really, I sort of know what I'm talking about. I don't really know. And we shared that with Zach and he's like, "Oh God, that's a great idea." He's like, "That makes my life easier, too. Thank you so much for the feedback." Which bless you, he's over here nodding and smiling. We're not talking about him behind his back. He's sitting right here. So even for us, having a plan can be difficult and it's something we work on.

Catelin:     I heard something once about you train people how to treat you, and so if you let people get away with bad behavior but never come back and say like, "That's not going to work for me," then it just proliferates the problem.

Rich:          Yep, absolutely. So planning is a good thing. So that's number one.

Catelin:     How long is this list?

Rich:          Four, I have four. I just made four. And I don't have any like Jesse covered Canva and it's sort of a love hate thing. And he even said there is a place for it. I'm not thrilled with it, but I get it. I'm not a real big fan of Fiber for a lot of reasons.

Catelin:     Oh, heavens.

Rich:          But I don't have time to get into that.

Catelin:     You train people how to treat.

Rich:          You do.

Catelin:     I'll do anything for $25 on the internet, that's a bummer and you're never going to break out of that, and then you're just going to be bitter and burnt out.

Rich:          Absolutely, but I didn't include those, so those are tangents. I included just some general stuff. And I don't know if everybody knows, but I spent a lot of time client side, a lot of time agency side, so I've been on both sides of this. So one of them that I hate on both sides is cold calls.

Catelin:     Oh, no, no, no.

Rich:          I mean, just stop already. So one, no one definitely no one younger than 40, I'm older than that and still don't, answers an unknown call on their cell phone. They just don't. And really no Gen Z'er is ever going to answer that unknown call.

Catelin:     No. Send me a text.

Rich:          In a lot of instances like with my nieces and nephews if I don't text them and say, "Hey, have a minute for a call?" They're not going to answer my call either. Except for our seven year old nephew likes to do the surprise FaceTime. He's got his own Facebook messenger.

Catelin:     Isn't he sweet.

Rich:          Lockdown child thing with the uncles are in it and the grandma and the parents and sister and stuff. And you'll just get a random video call from him.

Catelin:     Cute.

Rich:          Which is really cute, but he'll stop doing that when he is a teenager, I'm sure.

Catelin:     Yeah. I guess it probably depends on what dollar amount you're putting in his birthday card.

Rich:          It might. He does pretty well. But I get at least three or four a days, sometimes more. I answer some of them. I don't answer a lot of them. Cold emails are right up there with it.

Catelin:     I was going to say it feels like phishing, honestly.

Rich:          Oh, it is, a hundred percent.

Catelin:     Phishing with a pH, I should specify.

Rich:          And not the band, not the good kind. It's just one of those things where we obviously work on lead gen stuff where you put out your content, you make sure you get it in front of your audience in a non-invasive way.

Catelin:     The right people.

Rich:          And let them raise their hand. And you're going to have such a better conversation.

Catelin:     And immediately, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. I'm just immediately aware of what do you want from me? What are you trying to get?

Rich:          I'll open a cold call with that. If it's a number I don't recognize, one, I will just say hello. And then as they start in, I'll just be like, "You know what? Cut to the chase. What are you selling?" And my favorite is, "I'm not selling anything."

Catelin:     I'm providing you with an opportunity.

Rich:          It's like, "No, you're selling." And the people who can't take no as well. So I'll get a lot of them where like, "Hey, we've got this revolutionary agency project management software." And it's like, "You know what? I've been doing this business a long time. I've seen everything from the super cheap to the super expensive." And I'll just reply and be like, "Oh, we just implemented a new solution. We're not looking for anything. Thank you." Which I think is a super polite.

Catelin:     Way of saying, "No, gracias."

Rich:          But my goal is like, "Yeah, we're good." So what I would do as a marketer then is I would probably ...

Catelin:     Check back in two years.

Rich:          Right, exactly. Put me in a drip campaign, a really slow drip. Every three months I get something from you. And no, I'll get him to be like ...

Catelin:     37 emails.

Rich:          Yeah, "You've never seen our system." And it's like, "And I don't want to see your system.""Well, what system did you get?" And I'm like, "I don't need to tell you that. It doesn't matter. We're not changing." The other one that I get is we get a lot of emails from people in India, China, Bangladesh, wherever, Southeast Asia, South Africa. We get some from Europe. And we have clients that don't allow us to offshore or outsource. They have secure data. They don't want it offshore and that translates to freelancers. And I just always reply back with, "I'm sorry we don't offshore anything because of client needs or client demands." And they'll email back, "Well, you can give me an email address. I can get a VPN and show as if I'm in New York." And it's great.

Catelin:     We don't operate in New York either.

Rich:          And also, "No you're not. I'm not going to do something shady for my clients. It just doesn't work for me." So yeah, so cold calls. And I think that's universal, everybody hates those. It's kind of a layup, I suppose. But the other two are a lot more specific to our industry.

Catelin:     I can't wait. Hit me with number three.

Rich:          So number three is when I'm giving you feedback, I use things like, it's just too plain. We're not feeling it. We're just not happy with it. This just isn't working. Non-specific feedback.

Catelin:     I can't help you.

Rich:          I can't do anything with it, and I hate it. It's great knowing how you feel, but please continue on and let me know like "Oh, our CEO hates the color pink, and you used that here." Well, first of all, that should have been in the brief. Second of all, absolutely, we get that. We can change it. We're not going to die in a hill for this thing. But when you say ...

Catelin:     It doesn't feel right, it's just not ...

Rich:          More pop. It needs more pop. All of those things that people joke about, they really happen in our industry. And I tried very, very hard as a client to never do that. I also tried to find three things that I liked about every concept. And if I couldn't find three things that I liked, I would just be very blunt and say, "You know what? This one will not work for us for X, Y, and Z reason. And let's move on because you've got two or three other concepts here." But always trying to give that good feedback. This doesn't feel like it's in our voice. It feels too formal. I can work with that. I can give that to a writer and the writer can work with it. But it doesn't feel like us. What do you mean?

Catelin:     Who are you?

Rich:          What do you mean by that? So that's a huge one internally and externally. Because I think we also can get super busy internally and just be like, "Eh, it's not quite right. Can you just rework this?" Well, sure.

Catelin:     But I'm going to waste a bunch of time.

Rich:          I'm going to spin my wheels. What do you want me to rework it in it versus, "Hey, have you run a Grammarly check on this? Has this been through proofing?" Asking specific questions to say, "Hey, I see some typos in here. Can you get this to proofing?" Things like that, specific feedback is so important.

Catelin:     I remember in one of my college classes, I think it was my drawing class with Terry McGaffin. She is just the most delightful. I would do nearly anything for her, calm and she's just so measured. But I remember when we were going through critique, she would not allow us to say, "I like it," or "I don't like it." Because she's like, "That's not specific enough. When you're trying to critique other people's work, it doesn't help them grow and it doesn't help you think critically about the work."

Rich:          Nope, not at all. And I go back to, they've shifted it now, but I used to judge the Lamar's Art Center Photography at the Plymouth County Fair north of here. My mom's works with the art center, and they brought me in to do that. And I did it for several years because I was the first one to write feedback on every single entry. And they were like, "That was so impressive." And I'm like, "You have to tell people what's working and what's not. Like, 'I really love your composition here, but the clarity needs to improve. Focus on framing your subject matter better. If cropped it here instead of here it would be better.'" And then somebody told me that they're not supposed to crop photos, and that's one of the rules. And I'm like, "That's stupid."

Catelin:     That is stupid.

Rich:          Every photographer crops a photo. I can make it look like I didn't, and you would never know, but nothing comes out of a camera and is just on the paper.

Catelin:     That's wild.

Rich:          I think they changed it after that. But just little things like that that help people understand what they did well and what they did wrong. Because you can act on that. It really irks me where somebody has a lot of potential and they're not getting good feedback, so they just abandon it because they're like, "Well, I'm not good enough, so I'm done." And it's like, "Oh, you are correct. You're not good enough. But you could be with X, Y, and Z. It's things you can learn." And that was one of my biggest things with photography is if you have a good eye and can choose a subject and capture it, that's hard to teach. I can teach you framing and clarity and exposure and composition. All those things can be taught, but I can't teach you that that cat's a stupid thing to shoot, but the sunset that's happening behind that tree over there is right. Or if you lay down in the grass and have it in the foreground, the cat is suddenly an interesting topic. Things like that are harder to teach than, here's how you focus your camera. P does not mean perfect. It does mean automatic, but don't ever do that.

                  So I feel like we're going to through these too fast. Zach, are we going through these too fast?

Catelin:     We're doing fine.

Rich:          All right. I can come up with more stuff that I hate.

Catelin:     We're doing fine.

Rich:          Okay.

Catelin:     Number four.

Rich:          Number four I could write a book about, and I've thought about it and have.

Catelin:     You have a book in your head that you tell no one else about.

Rich:          I do. I do. And it's a flip book, but by that I mean it's not a pop a book. It means that if you read it from the front cover, it's the perspective of the client. If you flip it over and read it upside down from the back cover, it's the perspective of the agency.

Catelin:     Wow.

Rich:          So that's one of those concepts where the pages ...

Catelin:     I think I had a 17 magazine that did that.

Rich:          Oh, it could be.

Catelin:     I think it was two different versions from the front and the back.

Rich:          Yeah, I don't think that's where I got the idea.

Catelin:     Probably not.

Rich:          Maybe, who knows?

Catelin:     I don't know how much time you spent reading 17 magazine in the mid two thousands.

Rich:          I had an older sister. By the mid two thousands, I had a younger sister as well who might have been reading it, but I don't think I did. So this one is, part of it comes from mistrust between clients and agencies. There's just this natural skepticism that drives me nuts having been on both sides, and I hate it from both sides. There's also just a lack of understanding of perspective on how each one sees things. And so that's where, think about a chapter on budgets. And so the agency is asking you for a budget number because they want to understand typically if what they're going to propose is realistic. I don't want to bring you a 2 million idea if you have a $2,000 budget. Same thing, I mean, we don't deal with that big of budgets unfortunately, but if you're out there and would a wonderful team to work on it and you have a 2 million budget, we will fire all of our other clients. I'm kidding, we won't. We love our clients. But we would definitely find a way to make it work. But the difference between, I'm doing a website rebuild and I'm thinking it's going to be $5,000 and we're looking at it and going, this is a $50,000 project. Realistically, it's helpful to know that before we get too far down the road, because there's no point in us even estimating that then.

Catelin:     This kind of goes back to the fire drill thing for me, too, where it's like we have spent a lot of time and energy being cognizant of what will keep us whole and what keeps our employees happy.

Rich:          Absolutely.

Catelin:     And employed. And the number that we throw out is not just something we made up. There's formulas and equations and time and energy and effort that goes into just putting together a reasonable budget.

Rich:          Yeah, we've done this a time or two, not our first rodeo. Which reminds me of a meme I have to send you later that's hilarious. Probably not appropriate for work, but it was hilarious. So that's one that really drives me crazy. And I get it from the client's perspective. There's a fear that if I tell you my budget, you're going to spend every penny or you're going to try to upsell me 10% over my budget. So either I won't tell you or I'll low ball. And it's a disservice to everybody because if you low ball us and you give us 60% of what your budget really is thinking we're going to go over ...

Catelin:     We're going to give you 60% of your idea.

Rich:          There's going to be ideas that we don't bring to you because they couldn't be produced for your budget and you're going to miss out. Sometimes we'll bring them and be like, "Hey, I know this isn't in your budget, but this is what we've got." And to your point, for us anyway, and I'm not saying that every agency out there's like this. I know there are plenty of them if you gave them the budget, they're going to spend it. And I hate those people because they do a disservice for all of us. The cost is the cost. It's about our effort, our expertise, and our time. And we know what that cost is, we know what margin needs to be, and it's there. So that's one. And it goes beyond just even budgets.

Catelin:     I was going to say it's more than budget.

Rich:          Timelines.

Catelin:     It's just the trust overall. And we don't serve anyone by not just saying the thing, whether it's your budget or your timeline or your feedback.

Rich:          I've sat down with new clients even and new marketing people at a client and point blank asked if we're starting to get those feelers that something's amiss, just point blank asked, "Look, are you looking to go in another direction? It feels like there's some tension here or that you're not trusting us or not understanding what we're doing." And basically I've asked too, "Do you want to fire us? Do you want to part ways?" One of them I told we were going to part ways.

Catelin:     I think I remember that conversation.

Rich:          That was an interesting one. You might have been there, yeah. And then it's just one of those things where I don't have the time to dance around this. And if you don't want to work with us, we don't want you working with somebody you don't like. We don't want to work with people we don't like either, and we don't choose those clients. And we don't want our clients doing that either. If you don't like us, then don't work with us. But if you do and you're in, we're in this with you. We've got a non-disclosure. We're good to go. We trust you. You need to trust us. And we can make magic when it's really open and people are talking. It's like any relationship. If you're very open with needs, wants, expectations ...

Catelin:     Resentment is just unmet expectations, if you want to get really zen about it.

Rich:          And it's one of those where saying the words, "Well, had you set that expectation, we could have met it, but that wasn't one of the parameters of the project." Which my husband hates it when I tell him that, but not in those words. I will sometimes be like, "Okay, you didn't set that expectation." But now he won't. So on weekends, I really wouldn't leave the house on a weekend if I didn't have to. And so I'll get a, "Hey, I just need to run to Costco to pick up some prescriptions." I'm like, "Oh, I like Costco and wandering around there. I'll go." Six hours later, we're pulling back into the driveway because we have gone on all these errands.

Catelin:     Stopped it. You made all the stops and you're out. And then you remember that you have to do X and Y and Z. Hi, Brian. I feel you.

Rich:          We went to lunch the other day with his mom, which was really great, and we had a good time. And our house was on the way home from lunch before taking her home. We did not stop at our house.

Catelin:     You were trapped in the car.

Rich:          But here's the thing, I point blank said, "So you just decided to kidnap me rather than give me the option to go home." And he's like, "Uh huh." He's like, "It's just a car ride. You're fine." And I'm like, "Yeah, I just didn't know." And he's like, "If I would've told you, you would've said no, just drop me at home. And then we would've had to discuss that." And it's like, "All right, I'll give it to you." And it wasn't unpleasant. I like his mom. It was just a little drive to Council Bluff. It's not a big deal. But it was just one of those things where it's like, "Yeah, you didn't set the expectation on purpose."1

Catelin:     Now you're mine.

Rich:          And that was fine. But I do generally, back to planning, like to know where I'm going, what I'm doing, and how long it's going to take. Because if I'm going to be out for four hours, I think about that in my head differently than if I'm just making a quick trip for 20 minutes. So those are my biggest hates. I have so much stuff that I love about the industry and other stuff that I absolutely really hate about the industry, but those were the ones that I chose for this episode.

Catelin:     Yeah, I'm excited to talk about what you love.

Rich:          I am, too. I haven't seen where that's at on the schedule. I'm sure it's coming up.

Catelin:     Coming down the pike.

Rich:          Looking at Zack, and he's just like, first, he's just staring point blank at us. We should put these on video because they're hilarious. Because Zach has no microphone, and so he tries not to talk. But he will make faces at us and hand gestures, usually polite hand gestures.

Catelin:     The hand gesture that we're getting now is to wrap it up.

Rich:          I think we're done.

Catelin:     Thank you for being here, and thank you for sharing.

Rich:          You're welcome. I feel like I'm the Midwest goodbye. Where it's well ...

Catelin:     And you slap the thighs and then you stand in the front entry, and then you stand and freeze while the car runs.

Rich:          And you say, "Suppose we should get going," 16 times. And then somebody finally shuts the door and you're like, "I guess we should leave."

Catelin:     Yeah, yep.

Rich:          All right, well that's it for another episode.

Catelin:     Thanks for being here.

Rich:          Yeah, hope you enjoyed it.

                  That's it for another episode of Cocktails, Tangents and Answers.

Catelin:     We hope it was as much fun to listen to as it was to make.

Rich:          You can find me on Twitter or Instagram at @RichMackey. I try not to make it too difficult. It's just my name. And you can find our agency at Antidote_71. That's A-N-T-I-D-O-T-E_71 on Twitter and Instagram as well.

Catelin:     And you can find me at home sipping a craft cocktail prepared by my in-home bartender. It's my husband.

Rich:          We'll be back with another episode every other week and a whole new cocktail recipe. Plenty more tangents and of course answers to those pressing marketing questions.

Catelin:     And if you'd like to send us a question, you can go to to send us an email.

Rich:          Or you can call our hotline at (402) 718-9971 and leave us a voicemail. Your questions might be used for future episodes of the podcast.

Catelin:     For now, like and subscribe and tune in next time.