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18 New Year Sour

2023 Marketing Trends 

To celebrate the start of the New Year, we decided to try something new with this week's episode. Get ready for a face-off with hosts Rich and Catelin up against producer Zac. He researched and created five interesting 2023 marketing trends, a couple being entirely fictional. It's up to our two hosts to decide which are real and which are fake. To see who comes out on top make sure you give it a listen.

New Year Sour 

This week's cocktail is a classic New York Sour that we dubbed a New Years Sour to get into the holiday spirit. If you love photogenic cocktails that also taste great then this is the cocktail for you.  


  • 2 oz. Rye Whiskey or Bourbon
  • 1 oz. lemon juice, freshly squeezed 
  • .75 oz. of simple syrup
  • .50 oz. of red wine 
  • 1 egg white (optional)


1.  Add the whiskey, lemon juice, simple syrup and egg white (optional) into a shaker with ice and shake hard until well-chilled.

2.  Strain into a rocks glass over fresh ice.

3.  Slowly pour the red wine over the back of a bar spoon so that the wine floats on top of the drink.

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Episode Transcript

Rich:          Catelin, [inaudible 00:00:09]

Catelin:     We're here.

Rich:          We're back.

Catelin:     Every time we do this, we're in a different location, or trying to figure out what the best-

Rich:          I know.

Catelin:     ... setup is.

Rich:          We're getting there. So, we're in a little room now in our new office in Sioux City, and I think if we had the acoustic tiles in the ceiling, this would be a really great place. I'm worried it might get a little warm too, because it's kind of small.

Catelin:     Well, and also my breathless excitement. This is just going to fuel this tiny, tiny little room.

Rich:          Yeah. I think it's eight by eight, right? You laid the carpet in here is that what it is?

Catelin:     I did! Jessica and I did. We had a lot of jobs, like other duties as assigned during the move. And the carpet in this room is one of the things I'm most proud of.

Rich:          One was not furniture moving or furniture assembly. We paid for that.

Catelin:     Praise Jesus.

Rich:          Thank goodness. Oh my goodness. Well, I think for this episode, happy New Year. It's a new year-

Catelin:     Happy New Year!

Rich:          ... new episode, new cocktail. So we're going to be talking about 20, 23 small business marketing trends as well, because-

Catelin:     Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready, I'm ready. I'm ready.

Rich:          Well, I hope you're ready because I don't know if I am.

Catelin:     We've hit record. There's no other option.

Rich:          True. So by popular vote, we had three options here, basically find some trends and talk about them, just have a random discussion while the producer introduces trends, or let producer Zac find three real trends for 2023 and two fake trends and then we have to discuss them and figure out what's real and what's fake.

Catelin:     I'm ready. I won't be stumped, except I probably will because I'm a grandmother on the inside and Zac is like 12 years younger than me, and he is much cooler than I have ever been.

Rich:          Well, these are broad marketing trends. So he did-

Catelin:     Did you cheat and look at the-

Rich:          No, I didn't-

Catelin:     Okay, I was like, did you look at the list? You're just saying broad.

Rich:          Well, because that's what they're supposed to be, they're just supposed to be general marketing trends. They're not like marketing trends of the youths.

Catelin:     I was like, BeReal photo composing 20, 23 years. I don't know.

Rich:          I would put my hands on BeReal dies in 2023, but-

Catelin:     Really?

Rich:          Yeah. That's just kind of where I'm at. But we'll see if that's one of them. I honestly don't know what his picks are.

Catelin:     Oh my gosh. Look at his face. This is exciting. Read them. Let's go. I'm ready. I'm ready.

Rich:          So, we can't yet, we're still in the intro. Cocktail, Caitlin. Cocktail. Priorities.

Catelin:     Okay, fine. That's fair. That's fair. Okay.

Rich:          Okay. So our cocktail is a New Year's Sour.

Catelin:     I love this.

Rich:          Which producer Zac found for us, and it is basically a New York sour. We just swapped out one of the words.

Catelin:     Girlfriend loves a pun.

Rich:          Yes. So it is, you can look up New York Sour, you can also find this, obviously, wherever you find our podcast, it'll be there. Two ounces of rye whiskey or bourbon. And is the rye important in the New York?

Catelin:     I should know this. My husband is so ashamed of me right now.

Rich:          All right. Well, we'll ask and we'll check.

Catelin:     I don't know.

Rich:          Because it doesn't say whiskey, it says rye whiskey or bourbon. An ounce of lemon juice-

Catelin:     Bour- go ahead. Bourbon can only be from Kentucky.

Rich:          Kentucky, correct.

Catelin:     Because it's corn mash.

Rich:          Yep.

Catelin:     See, I'm not a complete failure, Tyrell, please forgive me.

Rich:          All right. So two ounces of booze, one ounce of lemon juice. And of course that is freshly squeezed because there's no other way to do it. Do not pre-squeeze your lemons or limes.

Catelin:     And also don't use the green bottle of lemon juice. It's so acidic. I know it's convenient. My sweet dad keeps a bottle of lemon juice in their fridge and he puts it in his water because it helps him be more hydrated.

Rich:          I get that for the water. But if you're going all out on a cocktail for the new year, let's go right. Let's just buy some lemons and squeeze them. It's not hard. Three quarters of an ounce of simple syrup, which as you've reminded us in many episodes-

Catelin:     One to one sugar and water, unless you want to get weird, and it's three quarters water, one sugar. If you want it to be more concentrated. Yeah,

Rich:          That's a lot. An egg white, which is, I mean, this says optional. I know that-

Catelin:     It's not optional.

Rich:          No. And I believe-

Catelin:     It's flip season everyone. It's flip season. As soon as Thanksgiving is over, it becomes necessary and socially acceptable to put whole eggs in all of your cocktails. Not all of them, but as it's called for.

Rich:          Okay, well, this is just an egg white, not the whole egg, because it goes on top, right? Or something?

Catelin:     No, it gets shaken in. It gets shaken in, and that's what gives it the really lovely body on the top, like the sweet foam.

Rich:          So it does end up foamy on the top.

Catelin:     Yeah, but you don't just like-

Rich:          But it's because of the egg white. You don't just crack an egg right on the top.

Catelin:     Crack an egg on the top.

Rich:          I don't do egg in my drinks. I've had them, and had other people make them, which is probably good, as we're having this conversation, but okay.

Catelin:     Scramble one egg.

Rich:          And then I think this is what makes it in New York, a half an ounce of red wine.

Catelin:     Yeah. And I think, it's a red wine float, isn't it? Does it float on top?

Rich:          Half an ounce, I think it is a float. Yeah. Which is also-

Catelin:     You're right. That's what makes it a-

Rich:          And I believe, in talking to Zac earlier, whose mic is off, but he'll join us in a little bit, he likes this one because it's very pretty, it's a really beautiful cocktail. So basically you put everything but the red wine in a shaker with ice and you shake, shake, shake, shake your booty-

Catelin:     Thank you.

Rich:          ... and then you put it in your glass. I would choose a coupe glass.

Catelin:     Correct.

Rich:          Ooh, Zac is showing us pictures.

Catelin:     Oh, you could do a little rocks glass. That's cute.

Rich:          Yeah, you could do a rock glass. Yeah. I don't want a coop glass anymore, I want a rocks glass, rocks glass people, I love my coupe, but rocks glass. And then you do, this is a half ounce of red wine, I would argue that those pictures you showed us are probably at least an ounce of red wine on top of there because it's like, I mean, that's like an inch, three quarters of an inch.

Catelin:     But it sits on top, so it is partially integrated, I would follow the recipe. I don't know.

Rich:          This is kind of the sour version of a tequila sunrise a little. I mean, completely different drink. But you get the layers.

Catelin:     And also grenadine instead of red wine, yeah.

Rich:          I mean, could you put red wine in a tequila sunrise? I feel like maybe yes.

Catelin:     You could but it probably wouldn't be a [inaudible 00:06:12]

Rich:          Oh, it won't be sweet then. You're going to miss the sweet-

Catelin:     You're going to miss out on the sweetness.

Rich:          So now you've got to put the simple syrup in it, now basically you've got a New York sour with tequila-

Catelin:     With the orange juice.

Rich:          ... instead of, and orange juice, instead of bourbon and lemon juice.

Catelin:     Just stick to the recipe folks.

Rich:          Okay, completely different drink.

Catelin:     We're not playing jazz on this one.

Rich:          But it is a really beautiful drink. You'll see Desi's artist illustration of it on the cover art and on the landing page. But definitely look this one up, up.

Catelin:     It's cute. Yeah.

Rich:          It's a really gorgeous drink. I might have to go make one of these just because...

Catelin:     You want to look at it?

Rich:          I do. It's beautiful.

Catelin:     Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Rich:          All right. So that's our drink. And I know you are chomping at the bit to getting into trends-

Catelin:     I'm so ready.

Rich:          ... because you love a challenge and you love a game.

Catelin:     I want to win. I'm here to win.

Rich:          All right. Well, new year, we've wiped the slate clean. So if we continue to have challenges O and O-

Catelin:     I know. I was like, we had a slate to begin with?

Rich:          We always have a slate.

Catelin:     This is the slate.

Rich:          We always have a slate.

Catelin:     We do. Oh, what have I won in the past?

Rich:          I think you've won everything.

Catelin:     Now you're just appealing to my vanities.

Rich:          Yeah. It may not have been a contest, but I'm pretty sure you won.

Catelin:     Thank you. I would like that in writing.

Rich:          Which I think that's actually a song by a gay pop artist.

Catelin:     Also reflected in my compensation package for 2023. You are the winner.

Rich:          You will get a 100% bonus on the prize money for winning in 2022, which is $0.

Catelin:     That's something. It's a moral victory.

Rich:          All right, so-

Catelin:     I'll take it.

Rich:          ... should we take a little dance break? Let Zac throw some music in here, and then we'll let him turn on his mic and come back, and-

Catelin:     I can't wait. I'm so ready.

Rich:          ... and see if he can stump us.

Catelin:     My money's on Zac.

Rich:          I kind of think, yeah. All right, we'll be back.

Catelin:     All right.

Rich:          All right, are you ready for this?

Catelin:     I'm so ready. I think I said that 37 times before we went to the break.

Rich:          I know, and it's-

Catelin:     I can't wait. Zac's going to explain the rules.

Rich:          Yeah. And it's a lot for us to just give up control and let Zac take control.

Catelin:     Oh no, I'm here for it. I'm along for the ride.

Rich:          Oh, you're here. Oh, you just want-

Catelin:     I'm ready.

Rich:          Oh my God. Caitlin is a little competitive.

Catelin:     It's been a weird day, I'm ready for this ride, I will not apologize for any of the things that may be said in the next 20 minutes.

Rich:          All right. Well Zac, it's probably time for you to speak and tell us what the heck are we doing?

Zac:           Yes. Hello everyone. Basically the name of the game is, I'm going to present five different marketing trends, which a lot of this research was done from HubSpots Trend reports.

Rich:          Oh, okay.

Catelin:     We love HubSpot.

Zac:           If either of you read that, you might have a leg up.

Rich:          I have not yet. I usually read them when they come out, but I haven't. Damn it.

Zac:           Okay. I'm lucky then. But basically, I will present the trend, what it is, and then I'll let each of you take a turn. You can obviously both discuss things at the same time.

Catelin:     So here's the thing. Here's my one, because I love a rule, but I also like it when the rules are my rules. I would like it to be Rich and Caitlin versus Zac.

Zac:           Versus me.

Catelin:     Yeah.

Rich:          Oh, so we have to agree.

Catelin:     So we were like, we're going to agree, and come to a consensus and then beat you, is what will happen.

Zac:           Yeah, no, I like that. I'll take a point. I'll take a point if you guys get it right.

Catelin:     Yes!

Rich:          All right.

Zac:           All right, so-

Catelin:     I really just wanted to not compete with you, Rich, because I would also lose to you.

Rich:          I mean, maybe. I have my own opinions on what trends will and won't survive. I have seen a lot of things come and go, but I don't know.

Catelin:     So I have a gut reaction. And you have actual knowledge.

Rich:          I also have gut reactions, though. I do a lot with gut reactions. But.

Zac:           Another thing to know as you guys are talking-

Catelin:     Oh, I can't wait.

Zac:           ... about this, is-

Rich:          It's getting complicated.

Zac:           ... it says two fake ones, but there could be more, there could be less.

Rich:          What? Oh, Jesus.

Zac:           Yep. Just to make things a little more difficult.

Catelin:     I love Parks and Recreation, the TV show. And in one of the episodes, Andy Dwyer says, "a game is the foot." And that's all I have running through my head, is Chris Pratt's [inaudible 00:10:21] "a game is the foot." And I'm ready.

Zac:           So are we ready guys?

Catelin:     Yes.

Rich:          I believe so. Yes. I don't think we're going to be more ready. And we've got to record an episode, so let's go.

Zac:           All right. So this first one is pretty good. It's, influencer marketing will evolve into a common marketing tactic with micro influencers at the forefront of this growth.

Rich:          Oh, totally true.

Catelin:     Yeah. It's already happening.

Rich:          I actually teach about that. Yeah, I would say that, I definitely think that one's true.

Catelin:     Okay. Because I need you to define a micro influencer, 'cause I feel like that's the-

Rich:          Smaller audience.

Catelin:     Okay.

Rich:          Like, smaller, way more niche audience.

Catelin:     Targeted. Okay. I just wanted to, again, the rules, I want to fully understand the question in the context before I submit a final answer. But I think this is a yes for me.

Rich:          Yeah. It's the difference between an influencer might be influencing you on bars and cocktails, a micro influencer is going to be on craft bourbon drinks.

Catelin:     Location based, yeah.

Rich:          It could be location based as well in a specific area. So the idea is micro influencers are cheaper, they've got a more loyal audience, that's more relevant to them.

Catelin:     Trusted.

Rich:          And trusted, and you're not wasting as much. It's really, and I hate to say this, I love broadcast TV, God bless them, but it's the difference between just putting something out in the whole DMA that's this giant geography depending on where you are, and buying streaming TV where you're cherry picking like 10 DIY shows or 10 DIY networks.

Catelin:     Shows and zip codes and very specific. I get that.

Rich:          Yeah. We're going a hundred percent true on this one.

Zac:           All right. Maybe I'll put a drum roll here or something.

Catelin:     Ooh, I won't. But-

Zac:           You guys are correct.

Catelin:     Yes.

Rich:          Yes. That one I was super confident on.

Catelin:     Yeah, it felt like a trick, like the true/false trick where it was like, what is it, I want a full definition of all of the vocabulary words before I start spelling.

Rich:          And I'm good with the true/false trick. So I do, when I teach my college classes, we do test reviews with Kahoot. It's like an online game thing, I'm sure everybody listening knows if you've been in college recently.

                  But I will throw in, generally speaking, this is true or false, or only, or Exactly, and if you know me when I'm just hooking you and reeling you in, but what's funny is, prior to recording this episode, we went through some final stuff, and one of the questions is, micro influencers provide better ROI than broad influencers, true or false? And the answer is true.

Catelin:     I was going to say that feels true to me.

Zac:           Yeah, better ROI. I also have a fun fact.

Catelin:     Yeah. Oh my God, there's a pun and a fun fact in this episode.

Zac:           More than 56% of marketers who invest in influencer marketing work with micro influencers because they see the highest level of engagement. And I totally agree with what you guys were saying, I think micro influencers are definitely more niche audience. It's a great way to reach people that you can't normally reach.

Rich:          Sure. I feel like there's a shout out to a micro influencer in the room.

Catelin:     Omaha BrewDog.

Rich:          Yep. Omaha BrewDog. So you do beers, but you focus on beers that are either made in or served in Omaha. Mostly made in and around, right?

Zac:           Yeah. All local stuff. So we tend-

Catelin:     You've done some Sioux City things too. Yeah.

Zac:           Yeah, Sioux City, we kind of branch out a little bit. If we go on vacation, we post some fun ones.

Rich:          But it's got to be from, so I know, I think Christian had posted a Colorado one when he was out there, but it was a local Colorado beer. So, I mean, that's micro influencing. You just need to monetize it.

Zac:           Yeah. I may or may not have thrown that in because of me, but.

Catelin:     Hello, I'm going to self serve myself.

Rich:          Perfect. And there was our plug. You can find them on Facebook and Instagram, I know.

Zac:           Yes. @OmahaBrewDogs. Please check us out.

Catelin:     It's a very cute logo.

Rich:          Is the website up yet?

Zac:           Yeah, the website's up.

Catelin:     Yes. It's like, and you can contact them and fill out forms and stuff.

Zac:           You can request [inaudible 00:14:19]

Rich:          I kind of know who they're [inaudible 00:14:20]

Catelin:     Right. You can't just reach over and tap Zac on the shoulder and be like, hello, I have a request.

Rich:          Yeah, since I sit across from him most days when I'm in Omaha. Is it just

Zac:           I believe so, but not, I can't remember [inaudible 00:14:32]

Catelin:     Let's check.

Zac:           ... the pressure of the Moment's.

Rich:          Caitlin's going to fact check that for us. We'll come back on it.

Zac:           I will move on to the next one though.

Rich:          Okay. Yeah. We got to keep going.

Zac:           Make sure you pay attention to how things are said for some of the future ones. Just because-

Rich:          Okay, this one's fake.


Zac:           Yep. There we go.

Catelin:     With their cute little puppy. Perfect.

Rich:          Okay. All right. What's going on with this? So we need to pay attention to how you say it.

Catelin:     I'm ready.

Rich:          You're going to try to trick us is what I'm hearing.

Zac:           Maybe in the future. Who knows?

Catelin:     It's happening right now. I'm ready.

Rich:          Fake. Oh, wait, I got to wait.

Zac:           This one is, more brands will begin to test out native advertising solutions.

Rich:          More brands will begin to test out native advertising solutions.

Catelin:     I feel like it's more brands will be-

Zac:           I was going to say test out-

Catelin:     ... be implementing native ads.

Zac:           Implementing more native ad campaigns kind of thing.

Rich:          I mean, native is growing. See, now that you've warned us that you're going to try to trick us, I'm concerned that you're trying to trick us.

Catelin:     I feel like this-

Zac:           I may have just trying to throw you off by saying that, but-

Rich:          I mean, this one-

Catelin:     This is the version of that game we play during happy hour wherein Zac gets so excited and he can't stop talking-

Rich:          And then he gives it away.

Catelin:     ... and then he can't-

Rich:          And we know what's happening and then we beat him. So here's my thoughts on native. So native is a very broad term.

Catelin:     Yeah. That's why I'm like, I would like the definition of native in this instance.

Rich:          I mean, Zac can correct me if I'm wrong-

Catelin:     [inaudible 00:16:03].

Rich:          ... but I believe it's something that at least on the surface appears to be part of the content, or appears to be content, versus a banner ad or something like that.

Catelin:     Mm-hmm.

Zac:           Yes. It's designed to blend in and promote your brand to your new audience who might never learn about you.

Rich:          Yeah. So it's basically-

Catelin:     Can you give me an example?

Rich:          Oh, gosh.

Zac:           So something that I would do, I used to have an internship at Canby Transportation, but basically, a lot of the time, what we would do is we would pay a company called CDL Life, which produces editorial content-

Catelin:     Mm-hmm.

Zac:           ... news articles.

Catelin:     It's like industry content.

Zac:           Yeah, it's basically disguised, like the way-

Catelin:     Like an advertorial.

Zac:           Yeah.

Catelin:     That's okay.

Zac:           Yeah, that's the way I did it.

Rich:          It's same idea. You can also do it through third party services, like RollWorks will do native advertising for you. You basically put in photos and headlines, it's kind of doing Google display now. Google display is shifting toward native almost. It's not a banner ad. You got the elements of it. And then they place it in places to try to make it look like it's either adjacent to or part of the article. So, I mean, I don't think it's going away. I think that when you look at small businesses, so these are small business trends also, right?

Catelin:     I mean, that seems pricey-

Zac:           Yeah, it's small business trends too.

Catelin:     ... like the content development and some of the strategy behind that.

Rich:          It can be, but it's not as pricey as some of the other tools.

Catelin:     And I guess I should also preface by saying, I think of small business in terms of us and myself as a single person, small business, but small business is really fewer than 200? Or 500 employees?

Rich:          I think it's 500 employees.

Catelin:     I can't remember what the official-

Rich:          There's a, so SMV-

Catelin:     ... department of labor, yeah.

Rich:          [inaudible 00:17:44] small and medium business. But yeah, it's definitely not, you're not in the Fortune 500, even the Fortune 1000 usually.

Catelin:     Right, yeah.

Zac:           So what do you guys think?

Rich:          I mean-

Catelin:     I'm on a tangent. Can you say it again? Will you read it again?

Zac:           So I will say, how did I put it? More brands will test out native ads. So basically, like, will it grow, like, will that part-

Catelin:     Yeah, I think it's the test out for me. I think it's false in that it's not specific, it's not-

Rich:          Testing...

Catelin:     ... strong enough, yeah, they've been testing and they're going to implement it. I think that's the trick. I wish I could read your poker face.

Rich:          I feel so-

Catelin:     It's like true false.

Zac:           I'm going to need a final answer.

Rich:          Yeah, yeah. I know. We've got to keep moving. Honestly, for small business, I think it's probably true. I think there's more testing going on at the lower levels.

Catelin:     Okay, I could see that.

Rich:          I think there's less testing going on with Coke, Pepsi, those type of people.

Catelin:     Where the budget will [inaudible 00:18:43]

Rich:          Go, where you've got the budget and you don't care. And it's actually a cheap way to advertise compared to a Super Bowl sponsorship. So I'm going to say yes. And if you'll come along with me on this, I think we're okay.

Catelin:     I'll allow it.

Zac:           You are correct.

Rich:          Yes.

Zac:           Yeah, I think-

Catelin:     Was I on the right track though? Was the trick in the testing, or is that? Give me the facts.

Zac:           So I think it's just the way I worded it-

Catelin:     Okay.

Zac:           ... it's more of a growth.

Catelin:     Okay. Okay.

Rich:          Will grow. Yeah. Because we say native advertising will grow, I think that's an easier smash that yes.

Catelin:     Absolutely. Okay.

Rich:          But I do think that-

Zac:           It didn't help that I threw you guys off.

Rich:          Yeah, I know.

Zac:           [inaudible 00:19:14]

Catelin:     It's tricky folks.

Rich:          I do think also that it is true that small businesses are later to the game on those things.

Catelin:     I mean, that's the case almost always, isn't it?

Rich:          Although, I wonder if small businesses were actually a little early on the micro influencers, simply because they can't afford a Kylie Jenner or somebody.

Catelin:     Yeah. It will also be really interesting economically as hiring trends and things have shifted, to see, because that's, economic downturns are typically really good for small business, because people get laid off, and they're like, well no time now to see if this idea that I've had percolating for five years works, and so-

Rich:          Oh yeah, the number of entrepreneurial startup, small businesses-

Catelin:     It's huge.

Rich:          ... from 2020 to 2022, it just skyrocketed. It was really great.

Catelin:     Yeah.

Zac:           Yep. So the fun fact for this one is that nearly of the marketers who I guess HubSpot surveyed-

Rich:          Which is a lot, it's thousands.

Catelin:     Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zac:           ... 36% say it's effective, but 50% say it's their top ROI generating tactic.

Catelin:     Wow. Oh.

Zac:           So they're basically saying they think it's going to grow because of how effective people are saying it is.

Catelin:     Yeah. It will be interesting to see what happens. I was reading something about how people born between 1987 and 1992 were the last, so we're the only people, because I fall into that category, we're the only people who grew up without the internet and then had the internet where you couldn't trust everything that you read, and we were coached very heavily, especially I remember in high school writing term papers and stuff, just because it's on Wikipedia doesn't make it true.

Rich:          It's true.

Catelin:     And so the fact checking or awareness aspect of that, where marketers are going to try and, infiltrate is maybe a heavy, that's like, we're in your brain, we're getting in there, but legitimize their content, or their advertising to make it feel less like salesy. It kind of just raises my-

Rich:          You're skeptical of it, 'cause it doesn't feel salesy. You're like, just show me the sale and I'll take it or leave it, don't try to slide it into my article. Yeah. I mean, I could see that. I mean, I do think, so I'm Gen X obviously, and we grew up with no internet and had it in college. So it was actually, it was late high school, we got AOL, which was, ooh, and then-

Catelin:     [inaudible 00:21:43]

Zac:           [inaudible 00:21:43]

Rich:          ... we got a little bit more in college. But yeah, I don't know.

Zac:           It's an interesting one. But [inaudible 00:21:52]

Rich:          We were just dodging predators in AOL chat rooms at that point.

Catelin:     Oh yeah. That didn't stop for me. Yep, a hundred percent. MSN Messenger was, do you remember your first screen name?

Rich:          Yeah, I do. And I'm not going to say what it was.

Zac:           Oh man, that's funny.

Rich:          I absolutely do.

Catelin:     We had this discussion the other day in the office and I was like, "I wonder if I can get into my old Hotmail account." I did.

Rich:          Oh, I can still get into my original AOL with that original screen name.

Catelin:     It was my very first email address.

Zac:           I had Hotmail for my first email address.

Catelin:     Oh my gosh. I'm not as old as I thought.

Zac:           It's because my sister helped me set up a Facebook account when I was way too young to be on Facebook.

Rich:          Oh...

Catelin:     Terms and conditions do not apply.

Rich:          All right. We should probably do [inaudible 00:22:36].

Zac:           Moving right along, yeah.

Rich:          We've got three more of these, but so far the score is two to zero.

Zac:           I'm not doing a great job.

Catelin:     So this is like, wait, wait, don't tell me where if we get the next one, then we win.

Zac:           So-

Rich:          Pretty much.

Catelin:     Yeah.

Zac:           This one's interesting. Virtual reality and augmented reality-

Catelin:     Garbage.

Zac:           ... will experience a large amount of growth in the marketing [inaudible 00:22:54] .

Catelin:     False. A hundred percent false. Absolutely not. The cost to enter that market is prohibitive. Especially when we're talking about small business trends.

Zac:           This is more of a all encompassing-

Catelin:     Well, you can't change the rules in the middle of the game!

Rich:          Right here it says small business marketing trends.

Catelin:     Small business trends. This is zero. This is 0% true.

Rich:          So I mean, right now you've got what? You've got Microsoft in there. iHeartRadio or iHeartMedia has their own stage in Roblox.

Catelin:     Oh, I didn't know that.

Zac:           In Roblox.

Rich:          I know. Well, I mean, that's what [inaudible 00:23:28].

Zac:           It's crazy how much-

Catelin:     But Roblox is, as far as VR is concerned, is pretty robust for what it is or what it started as.

Zac:           Roblox is huge, wow.

Rich:          Facebook is trying it, but nobody has anything. Nobody has shoes or feet.

Catelin:     Nobody has anything. No. And also-

Rich:          Have you seen that, where people are basically, if you look down you have no legs under your knees.

Catelin:     It's this creepy floating head. And also it's a vanity project. The metaverse is because nobody fucking likes Mark Zuckerberg in real life, so he is like, maybe if I only exist on the internet, people will be friends with me. It's not happening. This is zero. Zero. You will not change my mind.

Rich:          I agree, I think this one's not true. I think that it just feels like too much of a leap. I think it may grow incrementally, but I don't think it's going to grow [inaudible 00:24:13]

Catelin:     Yeah, it's not. It may be like 2030.

Rich:          Yeah. So false.

Catelin:     Yeah.

Zac:           All right. You are correct.

Catelin:     Yes.

Rich:          Yes!

Zac:           But it's funny because last year HubSpot thought that it was going to grow. So on their 2022 trends, they said they're going to have-

Rich:          Well, they didn't ask me.

Catelin:     Well, and also there was such a push at the end of 2021, and then inflation, and all of the tech bubble changed so swiftly when people's purchasing habits changed because we were like re-entering in real life things that-

Rich:          Well, and I think that coming out of, I think it also like 2020, 2021, there was sort of a never ending pandemic, lie people aren't going to be in person. There's going to be a huge audience, if not, you have to create these virtual spaces and zoom's not it.

                  And then I think we are back in person and we're back and we're kind of managing through diseases and whatever's going on-

Catelin:     [inaudible 00:25:14].

Rich:          ... but I think also there was, I mean, Facebook kind of monopolized the VR headset thing and that wasn't a good thing.

Catelin:     No.

Zac:           Not at all.

Rich:          I think if Oculus had stayed independent, you'd have a much better shot at innovation and price coming down.

Catelin:     Facebook's entire business model is like, oh, somebody else had a good idea? Let's just buy them. And then there will be no other competition. Antitrust laws need to kick in yesterday for Facebook, but we don't have time for that today.

Rich:          I also think that if Apple had developed VR, or bought Oculus, that it would be a lot further along.

Catelin:     I think it would be-

Rich:          It would either be further along would be hidden, and it would come out at some point.

Catelin:     It would be actually well-developed product.

Rich:          I think so.

Catelin:     And it wouldn't be, so the other problem with the Metaverse right now, is that they're trying to make it an everyman project, and that is not the nature of major tech innovation.

Rich:          Just make it for 12 year olds.

Catelin:     No, but what Apple does well, is they make a beautiful product, and they make it a status symbol.

Rich:          Because they make it for niche audience.

Catelin:     Yes, no, no, because when you look at iPhone usage, that started as a wealthy person's phone. It was a status symbol.

Rich:          Even the iPod.

Catelin:     But then as the adoption became more robust, it's still a status symbol, but it's more affordable. And that's what their VR situation will be when they roll it out.

Rich:          Also with that one, the competition learned that you could sell something more expensive, and all the prices of those Android phones rose, so that the Apple phone in comparison, wasn't-

Catelin:     As expensive, yeah.

Rich:          ... the iPhone wasn't as expensive because everything else came up. The market shifted on price point pretty hard. Okay, so good tangent. We're now three and zero. So the episode is over, we beat Zac.

Catelin:     Suck it, you lose Zac. Do the last ones, I'm ready. Let's do them fast.

Rich:          Yeah, we're ready.

Catelin:     We'll do rapid fire.

Zac:           All right.

Rich:          I don't even know what, how far along are we? We have time for these, right?

Catelin:     This is fun and interesting.

Rich:          It probably is-

Catelin:     For no one else but me.

Rich:          ... one of the better episodes.

Zac:           I'm thoroughly entertained.

Rich:          Okay, good. That's what we're here for.

Zac:           [inaudible 00:27:19] my seat.

Rich:          We're here for you to lose, and be entertained.

Catelin:     But Mark Zuckerberg has those stupid goggles and we have this podcast. This is my vanity project.

Rich:          True. Very true.

Zac:           This next one is fairly simple.

Catelin:     Can't wait.

Zac:           TikTok will continue to gain brand interest within all industries.

Catelin:     False. It's really tough with the CCP aspect of it.

Rich:          Yeah, the Chinese [inaudible 00:27:49]

Catelin:     I think this is false. Rapid fire. False. We don't have time. Go. Rapid fire.

Rich:          I mean, yeah, with when South Dakota banned it-

Catelin:     Sweet Jesus. We don't have time for that today either.

Rich:          I'm going to say no.

Catelin:     False.

Zac:           You're incorrect. TikTok is continuing to grow brand interest.

Rich:          I would be willing to put money on the fact that HubSpot is wrong about this one-

Catelin:     I think this will be proven wrong.

Rich:          ... and that it's going be too challenging for brands to be there in the future.

Catelin:     Especially as conversa-

Rich:          Federal government has banned it on devices, states are banning it on devices, there is absolutely-

Zac:           Are they really banning it right now?

Rich:          Yeah. South Dakota just did, this last week.

Catelin:     You cannot install it on a, yeah.

Rich:          In late November, early December. South Dakota, for state, not for individuals, for state employees.

Catelin:     So if you have a state issue, a government issued phone. But what I will also say is the private industry is going to adopt democracy protection, is really what it comes down to-

Rich:          Part of it, yep.

Catelin:     ... is the Chinese government surveillance that could exist and we will never know.

Rich:          It does.

Zac:           I will say-

Catelin:     They are denying it and they're saying that it's not true, but-

Rich:          The data server centers are all in China.

Catelin:     Yeah, there's no way.

Rich:          And the government has access to everything.

Zac:           I will say the interesting thing about TikTok is that it definitely has a grip on my generation [inaudible 00:29:04]

Catelin:     It's a beautiful product. And their algorithm is gorgeous. It's so intelligent and so-

Zac:           I'm served-

Catelin:     ... great. Yeah. Yeah.

Zac:           ... a lot of advertising on TikTok and a lot of brands-

Catelin:     Like content [inaudible 00:29:20]

Zac:           ... for [inaudible 00:29:21]

Rich:          You'll see a lot of native stuff on TikTok too. You already do see some of it. And I do see some TikTok stuff through Twitter or Facebook. It's cross posted, I do not-

Catelin:     Where the olds get their TikTok is on the Instagram.

Rich:          I don't have a TikTok account in part because there's a government employee in my household and we just don't-

Catelin:     It's not worth the risk.

Rich:          It's just really not. I mean, and it's private, I have a private phone and all that, it's just not something, I also just don't have time for more video rabbit holes.

Catelin:     I know. Yep.

Rich:          So we'll see where that one goes. We'll give you the point because in-

Catelin:     We've already won.

Zac:           I'll take the pity point.

Catelin:     Yeah.

Rich:          Pity points for Zac. But I'm telling you, when we get to 2024 trends, this one will not have come true.

Catelin:     Mm-hmm.

Zac:           Interesting. All right.

Catelin:     Zac's like, "you're wrong-

Zac:           Old man, you're wrong.

Catelin:     ... "I'm holding onto my pity point."

Zac:           HubSpot says differently, but-

Catelin:     They were wrong on the last one.

Rich:          I believe Zac just Okay, Boomered me.

Zac:           Maybe, maybe not.

Catelin:     But you're not.

Rich:          I'm not a boomer.

Zac:           This next one is very interesting and I don't care how long we talk about it.

Rich:          Oh, okay. So Zac's now saying this could be a two hour episode.

Zac:           It's a holiday special.

Rich:          Tuck in.

Catelin:     It's a holiday special. I should have worn a, I don't know, sparkles, or had a song, I could have written you a jingle.

Zac:           Should have decorated for Christmas. But hindsight's 2020.

Catelin:     Correct. Hindsight is 2022 in this case.

Rich:          Okay. [inaudible 00:30:47]

Zac:           I think I might actually insert that sound, but.

Rich:          All right, let's get to this one.

Zac:           We're on the last one. Blogging is on the decline.

Catelin:     False. Gasp.

Rich:          Blogging is on the decline? Minimizing-

Zac:           Immediately-

Catelin:     No, because that's your evergreen content. Okay. I have a gut reaction as we-

Rich:          You got more to tell us?

Zac:           Yep, there's more to it.

Rich:          Okay. There's more context.

Catelin:     I think it's false.

Zac:           Utilizing metatags and YouTube transcriptions as pages is becoming more popular. Oh, is going to become more popular.

Catelin:     Gross.

Rich:          Oh, gross. I mean, okay, so I say that, and if you go to, all of our episodes, we do have the transcript on there. And yes, some of that is for SEO, but it's also because there are generations that want to read-

Catelin:     Well, it's an accessibility thing too.

Rich:          Well yeah. Although, I mean if you're blind, I guess you could just could find the code where you could hit the play button. It is tagged. So the screen reader can get to that. But yeah, it is an accessibility thing. It's also an SEO thing. So we do put transcripts of these that are sometimes hilarious when they first come back to us on our page.

Catelin:     It's not for blind people, it's for hearing people. There's no other-

Rich:          Oh, wait, you're right.

Catelin:     I was like, "why this is an accessibility thing?" I know the answer, but I need to find it in my dumb loser brain.

Rich:          Blind people can hear our podcast. But you're right, it's for hearing impaired is why we have the, okay, God, I'm sorry.

Catelin:     It's funny that-

Rich:          It's funny that I didn't think of that and I just was like-

Catelin:     And I'm like, why? Because I was like, I watch Instagram with the volume off all the time. Why do I do that, with the captions? But that's why, it's hearing.

Rich:          Same, it's so that you can see it. So anyway, we do that, and it's something that I was involved in the decision to do that, I think it was Zac's suggestion and probably coming up with some SEO stuff as well. I don't see this becoming ubiquitous or replacing blogs. I do think video's going to grow.

Catelin:     I see a world in which they live together. But blog content goes back to, I think it was the first one, right? Where it's like native things-

Rich:          Oh, native? Creating your own content where it is an article that's sort of selling? Owning that advertorial?

Catelin:     Yeah. So all of those things live in the same ecosystem. I think this is false.

Rich:          Also among the cheapest to produce or create.

Catelin:     Well yeah, because you have a pamphlet or a brochure or your sales people's pitch, and you just utilize that as-

Rich:          So devil's advocate a little bit. I think that part of what's embedded in this, where I still think it's false, is that brands will be producing more video content and it'll be easier to convert that video content to written than an existing print piece being converted, because no one's doing print pieces anymore. People still are, but not as much.

Catelin:     Which is sad, because I love-

Rich:          I know. We do them sometimes.

Catelin:     Yeah.

Rich:          They do come up. So I think that's where this falls.

Catelin:     I'm sticking with my gut instinct that this is false.

Rich:          I think it is also false because I just don't see-

Catelin:     With the caveat of the conversion between video to-

Rich:          I think there'll be some of that happening. So one, I haven't seen a lot of it yet. I haven't gone to anybody's blog and seen them posting a video with the transcript under it. Two-

Catelin:     But I'm wondering if they're going to be more subversive about it, of you see the video in one place, and then there's snippets of it kind of converted to a listicle, or what, you know what I mean?

Rich:          I mean, you could. Also I think that-

Catelin:     It's also just general content strategy, isn't it?

Rich:          Yeah. I mean it is-

Catelin:     False. I stand by it.

Rich:          ... basically. Yeah. I stand by false too because also blogging is where HubSpot monetizes from that starter to pro, you get more blog. So I feel like that HubSpot would not be rooting for this to go away, but-

Catelin:     Blogs are forever. They'll never die.

Rich:          Yeah, let's go with false. And Zac?

Zac:           It is in fact false. But it's funny because some people would agree with this because video content is definitely on the rise. And converting that into, like you said, different types of content, almost like blogs. Yeah.

Rich:          Well Danell from Small Guy Productions, Omaha Fatty, aka, and also, his podcasts are videos on YouTube and then the audio goes out on the podcast network. So that I completely get, I mean it's just one more step for him to transcribe it and put it on a blog, which he might do. I don't know.

Zac:           Yeah. Hope we're going to get our podcast on YouTube someday. Even if it's, no [inaudible 00:35:16].

Catelin:     I can't [inaudible 00:35:17]

Rich:          Oh God. Are we going to video this?

Zac:           Even if it's just the audio, because a lot can people say-

Rich:          Yeah, you can't.

Catelin:     Well, yeah, it's a free platform and it's super accessible.

Zac:           Well that's the thing, it's one of the best places to reach people for sure.

Rich:          Well why aren't you on this? Why aren't we there already?

Zac:           We will be on it probably as this episode releases.

Catelin:     Right. Maybe this is our first one.

Rich:          Yeah. Because this does mark the end of our first year of podcasting, right?

Catelin:     Mm-hmm.

Zac:           Yes. It's part of my YouTube strategy. But-

Rich:          I know, you've got other priorities as well.

Catelin:     We have so many irons-

Rich:          And putting these on YouTube is not billable. So there's that.

Zac:           Exactly.

Rich:          All right. So nothing about BeReal dying in 2023.

Catelin:     You made a face about BeReal. I want to know what the face was.

Zac:           So I don't, I'm going to admit, I've never used BeReal.

Catelin:     I did one.

Rich:          Oh, do you know what it is?

Zac:           I know people that use it. I don't understand the concept, I just know that people use it, and that people [inaudible 00:36:09]

Rich:          Okay, so the concept is-

Catelin:     Oh my God. Are we going to do the reverse of Okay, boomer?

Rich:          Yes. BeReal was made for olds, apparently.

Catelin:     No, it's not, it's like the youth-

Rich:          No, I know.

Zac:           It's like younger people [inaudible 00:36:20]

Rich:          So the idea is-

Catelin:     Younger than baby Zac.

Rich:          So you get a push notification and when you get it-

Catelin:     Everybody gets the notification at the same time of day.

Rich:          And you have to hold up your phone and take a picture and it takes two pictures. One with the front camera of you, and one with the back camera of, oh, excuse me, I bumped things-

Zac:           It's okay.

Rich:          ... where you are. So you get this context of, like mine would my face and Catelin.

Catelin:     It's like instead of the filtered Instagram world of look at how beautiful and perfect everything is-

Zac:           It's supposed be more, I guess it's realistic?

Catelin:     Yes.

Rich:          A snippet of real life. That's why it's called BeReal.

Zac:           I've seen them before. I just, I was just like, what is that?

Catelin:     I did one. It was really...

Rich:          Yeah, it's the picture with the little inset picture in it-

Zac:           It's kind of cool. I just never knew what it was.

Rich:          Yeah. It's like you were FaceTiming yourself and you took a screenshot.

Zac:           I knew the whole two camera thing-

Catelin:     General premise, yeah.

Zac:           ... but I didn't know why it was a thing, I guess. But now that you say that, it makes sense to me.

Rich:          Because everything else is so plastic and filtered and not real life, that it's just supposed to be absolutely real. And there are people who are sitting on the toilet and you get a picture of, and it's like-

Catelin:     So from what I understand, you can retake it, but then it notifies people-

Rich:          Oh yeah. It tells people that you weren't real.

Catelin:     ... that you were-

Zac:           Not re

Catelin:     Liars.

Rich:          And so that's the social credit of the platform is to actually do it and BeReal and not get those flags where, oh, you weren't real, you waited an hour and took this.

Catelin:     Yeah, if you're late you get like, it's like five minutes or something, you get a certain amount of time from the time the notification happens to-

Rich:          I would probably be driving, and that would drive me crazy 'cause I would've to pull over and then take the shot because I'm not going to be fake. But I also do not have it installed on my phone. So that's another one. I don't do TikTok. I don't do BeReal.

Catelin:     I stopped doing Snapchat too.

Rich:          I only follow people on Snapchat, except now I'm finding out that it's the same shit that goes on Instagram and Facebook stories, and so why do I even care about Snapchat anymore?

Zac:           Everyone's copying TikTok.

Catelin:     But also-

Rich:          I know. And that's also why think TikTok will maybe die, is if somebody could do it a little better.

Catelin:     But Snap was kind of the original, not even kind of, they were the, that was where stories came from, and then-

Zac:           Yeah I remember you watching-

Catelin:     ... again, Facebook was like, oh we tried to buy Snap because they had a really good idea and then they said no. And so we're like, you know what? We'll just steal your idea and turn it into Instagram stories.

Rich:          Yep. And then we'll put that there. I did see somebody that I follow on Instagram, it was bizarre to me, wiped out their whole timeline of photos. And all they're doing now are vertical videos. So they've got 10 posts, and every one of them is a reel, and that's all their posting.

Zac:           I've seen that before.

Rich:          ... and I was just like, but all that history-

Catelin:     You can archive it. It doesn't go away.

Rich:          Well, it goes away for me for just reviewing it.

Catelin:     Right.

Rich:          But yeah, I was just like, oh, I mean it's-

Catelin:     Also download your shit from Twitter.

Zac:           I don't like when they do that, because that's hard to find stuff too. And it just looks horrible when you go on the channel because-

Catelin:     On the grid? Yeah.

Zac:           ... even if you try and title it, it sometimes gets messed up 'cause they're all vertical, and then it's just like, ugh. But TikTok added a feature where if you watch a video and you want to see a part two, you go to that profile and it'll take you to the video that you just watched.

Catelin:     Instagram had that for a while and then they stopped doing it, or it would say, you just watched this, but now you click on it and it takes you just to the rabbit hole of their grid.

Rich:          I feel like this is another episode.

Zac:           I'm writing that down.

Rich:          Okay. We're giving producer Zac ideas. So I think the official is four to one, right? We gave you that. You get a pity point.

Catelin:     (singing)

Rich:          But I still stand by that the score should be five to zero. The HubSpot is wrong.

Catelin:     We're going to to revisit this at the end of this year.

Zac:           This format will make another appearance probably, and-

Catelin:     Oh, this was frigging fun. Yeah.

Zac:           ... give me another chance to win. But-

Catelin:     Never.

Rich:          I mean, sure we can do more contests, but, all right. So it was fun having you on mic for this one, Zac. That was-

Zac:           Awesome to be here.

Rich:          ... a really nice change of pace. So I guess it's time for another dance break, and then we out of here.

Catelin:     Yeah.

Zac:           Yep.

Rich:          That's it for another episode of Cocktails, tangents and Answers.

Catelin:     We hope it was as much fun to listen to as it was to make,

Rich:          You can find me on Twitter or Instagram at @RichMackey. I try not to make it too difficult. It's just my name. And you can find our agency at Antidote_71. That's A N T I D O T E, _71 on Twitter and Instagram as well.

Catelin:     And you can find me at home sipping a craft cocktail prepared by my in-home bartender. It's my husband.

Rich:          We'll be back with another episode every other week and a whole new cocktail recipe. Plenty more tangents and of course answers to those pressing marketing questions.

Catelin:     And if you'd like to send us a question, you can go to CTA to send us an email.

Rich:          Or you can call our hotline at (402) 718-9971 and leave us a voicemail. Your questions might be used for future episodes of the podcast.

Catelin:     For now, like and subscribe and tune in next time.