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50 - Reacting to Moments From Our Most Popular Episodes

Reacting to Our Best Moments

In this episode, we will react to five moments from some of our most popular episodes. We will examine how much has changed since we recorded these episodes and bring new ideas and opinions to the table. 

Clarified Milk Punch

This week, we’re exploring clarified milk punch, a unique cocktail with a silky texture. We’ll delve into the science behind this historical drink, enjoyed long before the American Revolution. 


  • Earl Grey tea bags: 8
  • Granulated sugar: 2.62 oz (converts from 1/4 cup + 2.5 tablespoons)
  • Ruby port: 8 oz
  • Aged dark rum: 4 oz
  • Allspice Dram: 2 oz
  • Freshly squeezed lemon juice: 2 oz
  • Whole milk: 8 oz


  1. Heat 18 oz of water to 208°F. (If using a kettle without temperature settings, bring to a boil, remove from heat, and count to 20). Pour the water over the tea bags in a quart vessel and steep for 3 minutes before removing the bags (Do not squeeze the bags).
  2. Add 2.62 oz of sugar to the hot tea and stir to dissolve. Then add 8 oz of port, 4 oz of rum, 2 oz of Allspice Dram, and 2 oz of lemon juice. Cool to room temperature, about 20 minutes.
  3. Pour desired amount of milk into a glass pitcher, then follow with the tea mixture. (Yes, it will curdle.) Leave untouched on the counter for 1 hour. Do not shake, stir, or disturb in any way. Just let it sit. Make sure the tea goes into the milk, not the other way around.
  4. Line a large, fine-mesh sieve with a commercial-sized coffee filter (for 1.5-gallon machines) and strain the mixture into a wide, 4-quart container. Once completely filtered (typically about 1 hour), transfer to a quart jar or pitcher and chill to serve. (See note.)
  5. Store tightly sealed in the refrigerator for up to 2 months.

Recipe Credit: Alton Brown

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Episode Transcript:

Rich: Hey, Caitlin.

Catelin: Hi, a little birdie told me. That you had a tangent. Oh my God. So

Rich: I had to go pick up a Mac from the Apple store today. Long story, but our intern's Mac just died. It rebooted and everything was December 31st, 1969. And all the spare backs are in Sioux city. So I'm like, screw it. We got it. We got an intern Mac, but so I decided to forego my leftover Chinese food and I went to Taco John's.

Catelin: Okay. Okay. I thought you were going to say Bell and I was like, no, no, no,

Rich: no. And I know it's like, okay, cause. potato lays good everything else marginal, but no, so I was dead set. I was going to get two taco bravos because I love, I like soft shell, hard shell beans and other stuff, but they had a new burrito called the boss burrito.

Catelin: And I was like, Oh, that's me.

Rich: It is. It was so freaking good. Like it's got red rice in it and beans. And I had chicken, I think, in mine. They do steak also, but they had some other stuff, but whatever the sauce was inside of it, like very different from all their other sauces. Um, I was, I, I would go have another one for dinner.

Rich: Like it was really good.

Catelin: You've made, you've just made me want potato. May I tell you. That, um, Taco John's holds a special place in my heart for a couple of reasons. Tyrell worked there. My husband, at home bartender, worked there in high school. And so, every time we go, he still, like, remembers the, uh, like, all of the keyboard stuff.

Rich: So he just goes behind there and like rings himself and he's like, get out of my

Catelin: way. Like, cause they, sometimes they'll tell us like, we can't do chicken soft shells in a six pack and a pound. Cause that's what we get now. It's like a family. Right. And he's like, yeah, you can. It's three plus chicks. Like, I guess that's

Catelin: so, uh, so that like, that's a. Yeah, I love Taco John's and then, um, My sister went to Taco John's in high school. So I need to ask

Rich: her if she knows the three plus chicks hack to get your six pack in a pound with chicken.

Catelin: Chicken soft shells. And then that was the last thing that I ate before I became a mother.

Catelin: Is that wild? Wow. I, yep. The morning, like the day that Dorothy was born, I was like, uh, this child will never come. I like, I was three days past my due date and I was fricking over it. Right. And, uh, I was like, she's This baby is never coming out of here. And then like five minutes later my water broke and I was like, oh snap, okay.

Catelin: And Tyrell was like, well what does this mean? And I was like, I don't know, never done this before. And he's like, do you think, because we had been talking about going to get breakfast, and he's like, do you think I still have time to go get breakfast burritos? And I was like, yeah, you're fine. And then by the time he got back I was like, not fine, this is not fine.

Catelin: Baby on the way.

Rich: Let's

Catelin: go. I was so mad because we live so close to the hospital that I only had time to eat like four potato oles in the car. In between like contractions and freaking out about like all the things yeah first baby Because well, and then they like because like they won't let you eat once you get to the hospital if you're like in active labor And so I was like, I may never get to eat again.

Catelin: Yeah, it's like a whole thing Like I get it, but come on

Rich: I know more about what happens during childbirth than I ought to Because I was there when my sister was in labor with my niece I

Catelin: think that everyone should know because it's like an important thing, you know, like it's, it's science,

Rich: but it's also, um, gross, like the things that your body, the ways your body betrays you when you are having a baby.

Rich: It's

Catelin: yeah. Uh, but I mean, the nurses are very like produce de stigmatizing bodies. You know,

Rich: but yeah, but, and that does happen when there's a baby on the way, especially if you have an epidural and you don't know what happened. Uh, my mom likes to remind me and she just did this weekend when they were here, uh, that I was three and a half weeks late.

Rich: And I was just like, I just feel like your doctor couldn't do math. Like he was just bad at math. And she's like, she's like, when have you been early? And I'm like, fair point, fair point. Uh, so anyway, um, speaking of, um, Moments in life. Uh, we're gonna

Catelin: see is perfect.

Rich: I know I transitioned. Um,

Catelin: what a segue

Rich: we're going to jump back and Zach has prepared five little snippets of audio from early episodes.

Rich: So these are some of them are really I think one of them is actually the first one might actually be our very first episode. Oh my god. Um, and so The audio quality has changed. Our equipment has completely changed because we had no idea what we were, we were just like, let's do it. I think I came in and said, let's do a podcast.

Rich: And Zach was like, Hey, that sounds like fun. I'll research some things. And you said, I like to hear my own voice. I'll be on the podcast. That

Catelin: was a joke. I want to just like, really. Okay.

Rich: I feel like your husband's verified that you do like it.

Catelin: And also no one else was going to do it. You would have just been here talking to yourself.

Rich: No, I know. And it would have been really boring because I did like, I think I recently did one episode without you because you were like busy or contractors or something. I don't know. I have no idea. And yeah, I felt like it was one of our worst, but that's just me and I shouldn't be hard on myself. Brene Brown would tell me to like, be, uh, be generous.

Catelin: Yeah, that's really hard. I don't know if we have enough time to get into that. She points that

Rich: out. That's another episode. Okay. So I saw the name of this drink and I gagged, but I understand that, um, this is one that came from your in home bartender slash husband. So you want to kick us

Catelin: off with that? Um, so a clarified milk punch.

Catelin: It's, um, the idea of it. I don't know. is offensive. However, having had some decent, clarified milk punches, I have come around, like, I, I tried one in Nashville that I was like, that's spectacular, um, because it, like, the, the way in which the science happens, like the science experiment happens, it gives the final recipe, like, a very smooth Interesting mouthfeel, like it feels like it's fatty or creamy without having any actual, like, dairy in it.

Catelin: Yeah, like, it's not like a flip where you've got like the egg, yolk, or heavy cream or anything. It's, it like changes the viscosity of the final product. Like the, the sum of its parts, it's like greater than the sum of its parts. Right. So

Rich: good until like, I got to the end ingredient and then I was like, Nope.

Catelin: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's um, it's a particular recipe. I will, I will certainly admit that, but it's really like when you get to them, they're actually quite pretty to look at. Um, because like, you can appreciate the. Um, so, so what, what, um, and this recipe was actually the, the first one that Tyrell made at home.

Catelin: Okay. And, uh. I mean, this is

Rich: a really old ass drink, right? Like super old.

Catelin: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. So, um. We'll go through the recipe and then we can continue kind of discussing if you're up for it. If your stomach can handle it. I can handle it.

Rich: I mean it's, it looks, go ahead. Do the recipe so I don't give anything away.

Rich: And then I'll tell you what it looks like to me that isn't disgusting.

Catelin: Yeah, yeah. Um, so you are going to eat boil effectively 18 ounces of water or heat it to 208 degrees Fahrenheit. If you're using a kettle without a temperature setting, uh, bring it to a boil, remove from the heat and count to 20. So this does require you to do a little bit of, of science.

Catelin: This sounds very scientific. Right. It is. Uh, and we'll get to more science in a moment. So pour the water over, uh, eight earl gray tea bags in a quart vessel and then steep those for three minutes before removing the, the bags, but do not squeeze them. I'm, I think that makes your tea bitter. And that's just like a general rule of thumb for tea.

Catelin: Don't squeeze. People watch you because they're like,

Rich: I'm going to get every last

Catelin: drop. Yeah. Like every last drop. No, it's like, it's icky. Yeah. It's bitter. Yeah. Um, so more science. You're going to add 2. 62 ounces of sugar to the tea and stir to dissolve and then add 8 ounces of port, 4 ounces of rum, 2 ounces of allspice jam, and 2 ounces of lemon juice.

Catelin: Then you're going to cool that to room temperature, which is usually about 20 minutes, but that depends on your room and your temperature and, you know, how fast you stirred.

Rich: All right. Well, I was saying that 2. 62 ounces surely must convert to a very nice metric number and it certainly does not. It's a weird, just a weird.

Catelin: No. And um, so the recipe is from Elton Brown and he's kind of known as the like science y food network guy. Um, yeah. I, yeah. And so that's, that's the other part of it. Okay. So then, uh, you are going to pour eight ounces of milk, whole milk into a pitcher and then, uh, add the tea mixture on top. And yes, it will curdle like the lemon juice hits the milk.

Catelin: It's going to curdle. It's it's weird, right? Okay, and this is the part I'm assuming that you had a problem with so and then don't shake or stir or Disturb, I think the I think the recipe originally said like don't molest it in any way. Well

Rich: that too

Catelin: So just just let that all sit on the counter for an hour.

Rich: So I'm leaving curdled milk with hot tea in it On the counter for an hour. Yep.

Catelin: Yep. Hope you don't have chance Well, you can cover your stuff and also maybe not. I don't know Dorothy sits around and watches Tyrell make this on occasion so So once your your one hour has elapsed and you've not molested your mixture uh line a fine mesh sieve with either you can this calls for like a coffee filter or Cheesecloth

Rich: I would assume.

Rich: Yeah

Catelin: Tyrell's used sheath cloth at home, and then he'll strain a couple of times, so, um, You're gonna strain your mixture. To remove the chunks. Yep. So you, yeah, you remove the, the curds, cause that's really all it is, right? Is like curds. It's curds of milk, like Little Miss Muffet, and, um, transfer that into a quart jar or whatever vessel you have and, uh, and then chill.

Catelin: And you can

Rich: store this for up to two months. So here's what I think. I think that we should have a jar of this for the holiday or the summer party. Tyrell can make it and send it with you.

Catelin: Okay, so, um, I, yes, I too agree that the idea of this was sketchy to me, however, having tried it, what happens is the, the dairy, like, get, holds on to all of the bitter and kind of stronger flavors and it mellows the The alcohol in a way that, um, is quite pleasant.

Catelin: And so I, I'm pro milk punch. Yeah. For me, it,

Rich: it, so it seems like it's like a milk tea, like it's tea with milk. That has booze and other things in it, but there's also then the whole chemistry side, which makes sense that this is an Alton Brown. Um, I would try it. Um, it just seems weird. Uh, also people who want to do like, Oh, I'm going to do 2 percent milk or 1 percent milk.

Rich: No, it has to be whole milk and whole milk is. 3 percent people. It's not like it's 100 percent milk fat, whole milk is 3 percent milk fat and it is far more delicious than 2 percent or 1%. Yeah. Um, I've started doing that in my like drinks at coffee shops because they're like, is whole milk. Okay. And I'm like, yes, that would be great.

Rich: Um,

Catelin: I really, I'm an, I'm a big fan of oat milk.

Rich: Oh yeah. I like oatmeal in my coffee drinks. Um, The oat milk, brown sugar shaken espresso. Oh yeah. At Starbucks. I like that one. At Starby's.

Catelin: Yeah.

Rich: Okay, so this came around like pre colonial times, it looks like, right? I

Catelin: think so. I, I'm honestly not sure. The Stuart era England,

Rich: which I don't know what the Stuart era England was.

Rich: Do you? I have no idea. Zach?

Catelin: Benjamin Franklin himself injure injured enjoyed a version in colonial America

Rich: is that enjoyed inversion is an injured injured. I don't know. Yeah. Um, yeah. And then Queen Victoria, um, had it as well. And then it started, it came back apparently in the early 2000s. So the early, uh, Uh, 19th century.

Rich: No, wait, that's not

Catelin: right. That's the early 20th century? 21st. Early 21st century. 21st.

Rich: That's right. We're behind one, right? Like the 1600s or the 17th century because the first century started with zero. Got it. Yeah. Or one. No, it started with zero. That's right.

Catelin: I had, I have to have that conversation in my head every time I try and say what century we're in.

Rich: So what's interesting is this one evolves. So I wonder what the original, like, You know, Ben Franklin recipe or whatever it was, how close it was

Catelin: probably like tea was like highly taxed tea. Number one. Um, and then if I couldn't make their milk punch, right. Um, but then I would imagine that they, rather than like granulated sugar, I would bet that they use like honey or some other sweetener.

Rich: Maybe we'll do that for the notes. We'll give Zach a research tip, like go look up what the, uh, original. Recipe was even the Queen Victoria and

Catelin: then I won't drink that because that shit would be nasty It was like they were giving themselves lead poisoning. Oh, yeah, it was

Rich: probably also what they just did with the bad milk It was probably already starting to curdle and they're like, oh, we'll just throw it in here.

Rich: I know now you're now you're now It's too

Catelin: far

Rich: All right, we've gone too far. It's time for a break. We'll be back with, uh, what I guess is a clips episode. Oh my gosh,

Catelin: a clip show!

Rich: We're back. So, uh, what's funny is, uh, the other night, we were watching the Golden Girls late at night because it's like you need a half hour show you don't want to think about before bed that won't stress you out. It's a great one. And the jokes are super dirty, which is also fun. Um, so, uh, But they sat down at the table with like a cheesecake or something.

Rich: And then it started in with, do you remember that time? And I was like, Oh God, it's a clips episode. But, um, it was a pretty good one, honestly. We, we thought about bailing out of it, but we're like, no, we'll stick with it. We'll see. Where

Catelin: do you stream golden girls?

Rich: Uh, it's on Hulu. Oh my gosh. Every single episode of golden girls.

Rich: I think it's Hulu. I'm pretty sure.

Catelin: That's so wholesome.

Rich: Well, no, not really. You think it's wholesome when you're a kid, but they're, like, tawdry. Like, those women were dirty, and the jokes, like, oh my god.

Catelin: I can't wait. We also went through

Rich: the one where Rose admitted that, like, she and her ex had sex, like, every morning and every night before dinner.

Rich: Um, or every night after dinner, Rose and yeah, and Blanche was like, get out of here. But yeah. And she's like, she's like, you don't like talking about S E X and she's like, well, no. Anyway, I digress. It was really sweet. Um, and then they did the clips episode where she was doing her birthday cake herself after he had died when she was still in Minnesota.

Rich: It was her last day in Minnesota before she moved to Florida and met Blanche and Dorothy and they all moved in together. I know. I just took this to a sad place. I'm sorry. No, but I think it's

Catelin: just like beautiful, right? Like she found, yeah, okay. She found friends. Let's listen. Let's listen to our first clip, shall we?

Rich: All right. Clip number one from Mai Tai. What is Cocktails, Tangents, and Answers? That's episode one. What indeed? We're still trying to figure it

Catelin: out. Been 10 minutes.

Rich: So yeah, so I think on the tangents piece, um, a really good thing to point out, like we believe a great idea can come from anywhere. And sometimes a really random, stupid thing we're talking about in the office, like pays off for a client in some way or pays off for us in some way.

Rich: So finding that little thing and then just like. You know, continuing to unravel it and unravel it until you've got just a pile of yarn in the corner and then reshaping it. Yeah. What can you do with that pile of yarn? Okay. Um, so, so mine is one, I had a, like a very deep breath going on there, but, um, also like, I do not remember the pile of yarn metaphor, like at all, which is probably more of a problem with the number of, random metaphors that I use.

Catelin: I think my, um, my takeaway is that I'm like, and, and look at the beautiful thing we can make from that. Like every time I'm like, what can we learn from this situation?

Rich: I know I'm just tearing things apart. And you're like, but it can be beautiful again,

Catelin: right? How do we, how do we build upon this success?

Rich: Yeah, but I mean, I think the core of that is really good though, like, you know, a good idea can come from anywhere.

Catelin: Yeah.

Rich: Um, and that sometimes a good idea starts as a bad idea until you peel the layers off. Um, and then you give it to Caitlin in a big pile and she makes a scarf out of

Catelin: it. And I just knit you a sweater.

Catelin: It's

Zac: gonna be black. It's gonna be awesome. Well, and I think producer Zach here, since I haven't introduced myself, but I think with the, uh, whole tangent slime. Like that's definitely one of the most accurate parts of the podcast. Like we said, we were going to go on tangents and that is definitely something we do.

Zac: I

Rich: assume we're getting to Guatemala in one clip somewhere.

Catelin: In Honduras.

Rich: Honduras. That's what it is.

Zac: Well, that was,

Catelin: we'll find out, won't we? That was one

Zac: of the things that reminded me of this like first clip was the Honduras tangent. That's probably the most memorable in my mind.

Catelin: And then we, and it took us a year and a half to return to it.

Rich: I know like we, you threw it out there just randomly like, Oh, when I was in Honduras. What? And you're like, we don't have time for that. Another episode. Um, so I think that it was pretty good. I do notice the quality's a little bit different. We sound like we're in a tin can. Kind of, yeah. My voice was louder than it usually is, which is interesting.

Rich: Yeah, so that's the difference between the Yeti mics and the Rode mics. The Yeti mics are great for certain things. These Rodes are like, It is roadie, right? Or is it road? Road? It's gotta be roadie. It can't be road. What

Catelin: is the little through the O mean? It's RO with the slashy. DE, I dunno. I'm assuming it's like Swedish or something.

Rich: Sk probably.

Catelin: We just didn't know what we were doing. We've learned. And look at the beautiful thing that we have made from that pile of yarn in the corner.

Rich: I mean, it's been pretty good. This is, I think, Zach, didn't you say this is episode 50?

Catelin: 50.

Zac: Yeah, this episode that we're currently doing will be episode 50, so it's kind of,

Catelin: it's like a good time to go

Zac: back and look and reminisce.

Catelin: It's our golden anniversary.

Rich: All right. Should we do a snippet number two that came from, Oh, I remember this one. We did the, uh, work culture one, and it ended up being such a long episode that we split it into two. Yep. Um, and we have two

Zac: clips, one from part one and one from part two. So we can get into part one.

Zac: We'll do part one first. Let's

Catelin: do part one. Here we go. Jungle bird, part one. Just trusting people to do what they're supposed to be doing. And like this. Infantilizing of employees that happens at not even necessarily like large companies, you know, when you're talking like a thousand or more employees or whatever the like metric is, but even in organizations where.

Catelin: The leadership isn't secure with themselves or they don't trust their team and it just spirals into this like micromanagement and like hand holding and um, just like really nitpicky, terrible stuff. Like I, in a previous job, was told like I was stupid, like flat out.

Rich: Now I feel You're good.

Catelin: Yeah, I mean, I Not good from like having to remember that again.

Catelin: Yeah, thanks a lot Zach. I was like, no, ,

Rich: I feel bad for you. Like when you brought that up I was like, oh my God. Who would call you stupid? Like,

Catelin: no, I'm not stupid. I'm capable and wonderful. No. Yeah, you're trying. I mean, I am best, that's the thing. So, um. I think, like, nothing about my opinion on that subject has changed.

Catelin: Uh, I think what has changed is my certainty that, um, we are responsible for our own behavior. So, like, uh, tolerating that from someone for long periods of time is up to you. And as hard as it might be to say, like, Oh, I don't think so. That's like, that's the only, we can't control other people's behavior in any way, shape or form.

Catelin: Yeah. And I

Rich: think, I think the biggest piece of that, if you're in that situation or seeing like this micromanaging or seeing that trust devolving, or, I mean, if you're being called stupid at your job, I would maybe either go to HR or find a new job because, which I think you did eventually find. Two,

Catelin: it was like two other people worked there.

Catelin: The person who called me stupid was HR. So I just was like, Oh, I think I'm done. I think I'm good. Thank you.

Rich: But if you do find yourself in that situation, um, and there are all kinds of things out there that can help you with this, but it's, it's a boundaries thing. Like that should be unacceptable in the culture.

Rich: That should not be allowed or tolerated. And personally it shouldn't be allowed or tolerated. But it's hard. I mean, especially if you're new somewhere or you're young. Like telling somebody, you know, I don't appreciate that, it's not appropriate. Um, especially if that person has no kind of empathy whatsoever and no understanding of their own feelings.

Rich: That was like the red flags part of that is where we started and it became, it kind of Not to

Catelin: be an asshole. Yeah,

Rich: right. I mean, we were really tinny. I listened more in that episode because I didn't want to drive, you know, the whole thing. I noticed in that clip in particular, I don't think I really

Zac: spoke.

Zac: Um, well, and honestly, I think the reason that that episode was one of my more popular episodes is because it really resonates with people that have experienced bad word culture. And I mean, Like for me personally like editing and producing the podcast like that's one of my favorite two episodes just because talks about a lot of good like culture stuff and I just I don't know I just find that stuff really interesting and Why is that

Catelin: making me like emotional?

Zac: Well when I first listened to that When I first listened to that, that was like two years ago, right? So I was only maybe Oh my gosh, and then yeah this weekend i'm it's gonna be three years so listening back Yeah, that's right. I saw

Rich: your anniversary is coming up in june. I did see that on june 1st Uh yours and then I think jesse's Is coming eight years.

Rich: Yeah, I know And Caitlin has a big five coming up. All the big numbers has to be a good thing, right? She is dropping big hints on her five year gift. Like, not even hints, just this is what I would like.

Catelin: This is, this is what I'll, this is what I'll take. Yeah, anyway, I was

Rich: gonna get you 250 worth of gin

Catelin: Perfect I'll buy myself a five year anniversary gift.

Catelin: That's a hotel room and a spa spa treatment

Rich: And we'll just you'll just take our gin with you.

Catelin: Yes Imagine me pushing a cart of like three cases of gin into a hotel Well,

Zac: and that's a good segue to is like I don't remember if you guys remember, but part one is talking about red, like red flags in work culture.

Zac: And then part two is more focused on the positives of work culture. So that's a great takeaway into the next clip. Yeah. We had to pull it out.

Catelin: I want to just, cause this is like such a great question that you have in our notes for us is like, what are the practical. Tricks to navigating like hard culture and the first one is like quit I like don't stay yeah, like don't stay somewhere where somebody's treating you that way it but first I would say like you are responsible for holding people to an acceptable standard for you and you So like, exhaust your situation to say like, Oh no, you know, Jimmy, you can't talk to me like that.

Catelin: And then if you have an HR person, go there. But, Yeah.

Rich: I think that not running away from that difficult conversation, you may feel really awkward about it. God, it's

Catelin: so hard. It's so hard.

Rich: Um, but I mean, and you know, I'm listening to Brene Brown right now on audiobook and she said that that really horrible discomfort is only eight seconds

Catelin: and then

Rich: it becomes mild discomfort and then eventually it goes away because she's actually, she actually, they scientifically timed it and in a.

Rich: An uncomfortable conversation, your really negative emotions are about eight seconds. It's like riding a bull, um, which is probably harder than having a difficult conversation.

Catelin: And like, I'm, I'm a real advocate for continuous self improvement and like, I, I will talk to the, my baby's here, you know, like.

Catelin: will come to me and say, Hey, um, this, the client said this thing and I want to understand or like, Hey, I'm wondering about this piece of feedback that I've gotten and like, what do I do with this? I'm like, well, what, you know, like, what do you want to do with it? And how does that, how does it sit with you?

Catelin: And like, do you want me to fix it for you? Or do you want me to like tell you what I would do? And um, like that, I don't, I don't take that lightly either. Like the fact that. younger employees will come to me and ask for, for input. Like, that's really, um, such a gift for them to give to me. Um, but I, like, I, I deeply hope that everyone has somebody that's willing to, uh, shepherd them.

Catelin: And like, that's, like, you, you have been that for me just in terms of like, no, I mean, it might be hard and horrible to hear what, what someone is thinking, but also, like, it has to be. An open dialogue and like working here has has like cured a lot of my Uh, angst about work. Oh, wow. Well, that's good. It's taken five years.

Rich: I know, I know. It's hard. Well, I mean, if you, experiencing something bad takes a whole lot longer to get out of than, like, experiencing a bad boss takes way more recovery than how fast you lose the benefits of a good boss. Like, you lose the benefits of a good boss so fast. But that bad boss, just like, you're scarred.

Rich: Like, it really does take

Catelin: Yeah, yeah.

Rich: All right. So let's get done with the red flags and let's move on to what makes a good work culture. Cause this was, I loved this episode too. We kept the same cocktail because again, it was technically one long giant recording and Zach was like, nobody's going to listen to this.

Rich: We've got to split it into two episodes. So we did, uh, but we didn't have time to make a new cocktail. He just edited it and it was all good.

Catelin: Also jungle birds are delicious. So, you know, it worked out. To kind of pull this back to like our overarching point, what is so interesting to me is that part of the reason personally I wanted to be in the office is because I enjoy the people that I work with every day.

Catelin: And so I think more so than this, like snacks in the break room and like beer in the fridge, like that's not culture. That's, I

Rich: mean, to be clear, there are snacks in the break room and there is beer in the fridge, but that does happen.

Catelin: Yes. There's probably also some like weird mixed drinks in the fridge too.

Catelin: But I think like to define culture as a perk, as opposed to like having a safe and secure working relationship with the people that you Interact with either internally or externally, but that like freedom to be people first, instead of the idea that like, you have to leave part of yourself at home, man,

Rich: deep.

Rich: That is deep. We've come a long way. What I audio quality too. Oh my gosh. Okay. Let's the audio quality was terrible. That's really tin canning. But our thoughts were so good. Mm hmm.

Catelin: One do you know what I I have changed my mind on this a little bit that like perks our culture. No No

Catelin: That there has to there at some for some people and I'm not necessarily those people But I can understand and appreciate this a little bit more that like work is work and you're not your family You're not a family with work And I don't know that I ever like said that or mentioned that in that episode, but I do You appreciate that not everybody has the same level of connectedness.

Catelin: Yeah, I mean I think

Rich: I would have pushed back if you did mention it because I do agree that like work is not family. Um, it's not even your friend circle necessarily. They can be a part of your friend circle. And when you move to a new city, a lot of times work becomes your initial friends. Mm hmm. Um, but there is a piece of that, that is work.

Rich: You're there to do a job. You're there to get paid. You're not there to kumbaya with everybody.

Catelin: Well, and like the idea, if, if you, if you tie your identity, your family identity to work, and then you no longer work there, like that can be really scary. And it gets really hard. Yeah.

Rich: I think, um, the best thing about this for me is something that we've, I've always said, and I've said forever since I was at Ogilvy, your logo is not your brand.

Rich: Your perks are not your culture.

Catelin: Yeah.

Rich: Like that's kind of the equivalent of that. They're great. And you have to have them, but some of those are just table stakes. Um, but culture goes so much deeper than that.

Catelin: Right. And it goes back to what we were talking about too, is that like you, your culture can't be assholes.

Catelin: Like,

Rich: I

Catelin: mean, like the personalities, I mean, yeah, that's true. Some, somebody might want that. It's not me, but like the, the idea that you show up and you assume that everyone is doing their best. And, um, we are all trying to row the boat in the same direction. And how do we accomplish that goal while also being decent people to each other?

Catelin: Like, that's culture.

Rich: Yep. Yeah. The thing that got me about this episode, we talked about when like post COVID, we were looking for a new building and I'm like, Hey, we could just go a hundred percent remote and everybody could have like, I don't know, a 200 a month stipend for work, internet and cell phone and whatever.

Rich: And, um. That was not met well from our office in Sioux City because you guys were like, no, like one, we do like to leave the house, um, post COVID to, we like getting together with each other and we like the things that happen during the day when we're together.

Catelin: Yeah.

Rich: Um, And for some people it's just that it's during the day and then they go off to their own lives.

Rich: And for others, I know some of your friends outside of work and that's fine too.

Catelin: Our kids are friends at this point.

Rich: There's that. It's like, do you want

Catelin: to, do you want to set your kids loose in the same place as my kid being loose? And then we can just like, let them watch each other. Cool.

Rich: Well, and, um, and also could you get one set of grandparents to come watch all of the kids while you go out and do something else?

Rich: Um, Yeah. And I think that that can happen in a good culture. Like I've had places where my friend group and my work group, like overlapped a little bit, but it was never one in the same. Like it was never, my totality of my identity was never at work and I don't think it should be, but you spend a lot of time there and you want it to be good and feel good.

Rich: And you want to be with people who like treat you nice and in an environment that you feel comfortable in. Um, Yeah, it reminds me of that interview. I don't remember if I told the story in that one or not. I think I've told it before, but where I like noped in the middle of the interview, we were like 10 minutes into a 30 minute interview and they had two more scheduled after that.

Rich: And I was just like, look, I'm just going to save you the time. I am already feeling that this is not a good fit for me. And they're like, well, no, but your experience in the job. I'm like, no, no, no, not the job, but like the vibe I'm getting from your culture and your questions and just what I saw coming, like walking down the hall.

Rich: Like you just, I just got this feeling that. Everybody was on edge and ready to stab each other at any time. And it was a combative culture and, and, oh my God, he got so mad. He's like, we've got all this lined up, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, everybody likes to get time back. Like you canceled my meetings today.

Rich: I'm like, woo hoo, canceled me, I'm going to do some work.

Catelin: And also your reaction is only reaffirming.

Rich: Correct. Correct. The negative reaction. What I do to be true. Um, cause I would be more like, Oh, Hey, like I get it. Like if you want to be in a bigger place or a much tighter ship, like we're a pretty loose culture.

Rich: I respect that you call that out and don't waste our time and I can go do other stuff. Um, and I think that's important. Like I think the number one thing about like, if you're interviewing. And you're getting this negative feeling and you have no idea how to place it, but it just feels wrong. Do not work there because.

Rich: It will not feel different when you walk in as an employee on the first day. It will feel exactly like that. So trust your gut people.

Rich: All right. So very exciting. So that was jungle bird part two. And you're at the jungle bird is it was one of our COVID cocktails along with the next one coming up, which is you talk to the jungle bird actually.

Catelin: Cause I,

Rich: I remember I asked you, I'm like, what do we do? Like we got some pineapple juice that we found like cans and they're not expired.

Rich: What do I do? And you were like, Oh, jungle bird. And I looked and we had everything and I was like, all right, we'll do it. We'll do it.

Catelin: We'll figure it out. Yeah. All right. So

Rich: the next one, the aviation. Yeah. I love it. My God. The color is beautiful. It

Catelin: is pretty.

Rich: There may well do an aviation tonight. Maybe when I'm done, we're doing a, we're ordering Grubhub because they sent us a 35 percent off, um, whatever.

Rich: Basically free. Right. Exactly. We're saving money. Uh, but it expires today. And so I was like, you know, Brian was like, Hey, we can make those brats. And I'm like, we can do brats tomorrow. We need to do the Grubhub tonight. Cause that coupon expires.

Catelin: You're such a grandmother. I love it. So I may have

Rich: my aviation tonight.

Rich: He's flipping his coupons.

Catelin: I love this for you. I know. I think I'm going to go to Taco John's.

Rich: I will tell you the Boss Burrito, I don't remember what I was in it, but oh my God, I loved it so much. All right. Let's move on to clip four before we get too far and too hungry. We're already gone.

Zac: I know. So for original social content, I definitely go really hard into the research phase of that whole ideation process and definitely a lot and more into the collaboration phase, because when I'm creating our own content, a lot of the times it's just finding.

Zac: Like helpful tips that will help our audience and make us, you know, project us as an industry expert because really that's what we are. Yeah, we need to project that on our social.

Catelin: Yeah, um as far as like reshare, like what are your favorite like two favorite sites to find like reshareable or like industry specific articles.

Catelin: What are they Zach? What are the, what are the favorites?

Zac: I left that part in because it's kind of crazy to see how far our content has come since then Yeah, because now everything we create is original so we don't really share any other articles Like on our socials or anything like that anymore So

Catelin: because we're so smart and talented and capable

Rich: and it's not bad to share other people's stuff It shows that you're tied into the industry.

Rich: We probably should share a little bit more of other people's stuff It would probably ease up a few things But I think that we've got it. I mean we have an aggressive content plan and engine going now So one, Zach is still horning himself in as a guest on episodes every once in a while, as he did today.

Rich: He just likes us. It's a Clips episode where he gets to be one of the hosts. No, I'm kidding, Zach. It's always great to have you like on mic as well instead of just, because otherwise you're just sitting there like with your big green headphones just like nodding at us. And you're really good with your nod so we know, like.

Rich: It's affirming.

Catelin: I like it. I think my favorite thing about having Zach is that his unbridled enthusiasm. Like if I'm always optimistic, Zach is always enthusiastic. Like, he's just like, yeah, I think that's a great idea. Let's do it. And like, no question. And then he's like, oh, that's interesting. It made me think of these five other things.

Rich: So I'm curious for you since you're here, um, back when that was recorded early on, did you feel like you were just struggling to like grab content from wherever you could just to get something out there?

Zac: I think looking back, I had a good base for what basis for like creating content effectively and like regularly, but what really ended up tying it all together was like you said, the new content plan we have.

Zac: It's more streamlined, it's more focused, it has clear goals, it has research to back it up. So I had a lot of the good, uh, like, I had a lot of the right ideas. for the things that we were like doing with our content. But working here and gaining experience working for clients and kind of just learning more about everything like marketing really helped me tie everything together in the end.

Zac: So,

Rich: yeah. And I mean, having a structure that can tie a content plan to an annual plan, to an ad plan, to an organic plan. plan. Like the content's really the center of all of that. Um, and so yeah, I do like the more structured content, Zach. Um, it's a lot easier to follow and to understand where we're going.

Rich: I do think to your point, we create a lot of our own content. Almost everything we put out is our original. And so you've really got to, you know, work with the team to get that done. Because having a list of things we need to do is great, but if we can't execute them then we just have a list of things to do.

Zac: I think it's not the easiest thing, but getting people excited about what we're doing and giving them things that they are passionate and know a lot about is an easy way to start getting people to actually engage and put stuff out there. I think

Catelin: it's worth noting too, like, in addition to our audio quality.

Catelin: being better. Like, that was a year and a half ago, Zach, and like, what have you learned and come away with in that year and a half? And like, the The trajectory of your growth in that time is so like vertical, right? It's like you've gotten to this point where you're like learning, learning, learning, learning.

Catelin: And then now you're kind of like at this comfort level where you're like, Oh, I think I'm starting to like understand and know. And now like, how do we level up again? And I think like, Implementing some of the things that we've talked about just for clients like I'm so optimistic about How that how that plays out and like watching you you and and Megan and Riley kind of coalesce and like get to this point where you're working really well together and then like leveling yourselves up again is really cool It's like, it's like my little, my little babies are growing up.

Zac: Yeah. It's definitely, honestly, to your point, like I've definitely like gotten a lot more comfortable in a lot of the things I'm doing, but I'm also learning a lot of new things I'm like, I need to improve on to continue to like push things out. Effectively. It's been an interesting challenge, but, uh, like I thrive off of collaboration a lot.

Zac: So doing like talk, having this kind of discussion and like. Talking more about how we can improve things is really energizing to me. Yeah, so yeah, like I'm just No, even if there's like a little bit of struggle I know like every like a little bit of struggle and like frustration I might run into Is like a good learning point and yeah something to like Like you said, push my trajectory up.

Zac: Mm-Hmm. .

Rich: Yeah. And I think, um, it's really important to note here, like as you're, especially as you're doing something new or trying to push into new areas. Yeah. Having that like uphill is normal and it should be like hard.

Catelin: Mm-Hmm.

Rich: and take some effort because when was the last time something that was fast and easy was rewarding.

Rich: Was good. ? Yeah. Or even good. Um. You can pick three,

Catelin: folks. You can pick three.

Rich: No, it's pick two. Fast, easy, good. Yep. You can pick two! Fast, cheap, good. Yes. The metaphor's gone. Um, it's, it's lost, but I think that to your point, Caitlin, like it is. Okay. 100 percent to have that learning, like put you on more of a plateau and you've got a little bit of a comfort zone.

Rich: You don't have to grow 24 seven, like, you know, no, you're not the Monstera in the corner. Like you can pause. She's really taken off though. I know she is. She's huge. And, um, And then when you're kind of feeling like you've really got it, that's the time to challenge yourself and like ramp it up again. And

Catelin: I think like to go back to like good work culture and like positive working conditions is like some people.

Catelin: are okay to hang out and be like, no, I'm good at this. I want to just be good at this and that's okay. Like I've watched other people become over promoted or they get put into a supervisory role and they're not successful at that because their skill set is not managing people or is not, you know, supervising in a way that they've been like foisted in.

Catelin: And I, and I think, um, yeah. Like, to your point as well, like, it is okay to stop and be like, I'm good at this. And that's like, something I've learned just in the last couple of years, to be like, Oh, I think I know what I'm doing and, and like becoming comfortable in that is a gift to yourself too. Well, and I think about some of

Rich: the executive admins I've had at other companies and that is what they wanted to do.

Rich: They want to be useful and helpful. And some people like look down on it, but it's like, no, like I would be lost without these people. I would have literally been stranded in New York and not made it to Barcelona. If it weren't for my admin that I had at the time and being able to call him and leave him, just give him like three sentences and be like, they're closing the door.

Rich: I've got to go, but I'm on a different flight. Um, and you know, I need to get to the other airport. I had to go from Newark to JFK, um, in like less than an hour. And he found a car service who would do it and broke some laws, uh, got me there and it was all good.

Catelin: Godspeed to whomever that was, wherever he might be.

Rich: Um, and then he also, he, He's an artist now and he was an artist then and now I got one of his paintings and now I can't afford them because He's kind of got his group that loves his paintings, but it's the one above our fireplace. If you remember that the yellow splotchy one It's like very That's okay But yeah, like you can be what we just call them individual contributors.

Rich: You don't supervise anybody. You're really great at your job You're gonna get raises. You're gonna get bonuses. You're not gonna be on the fast track of to CEO, but that's not what some people

Catelin: don't want that. Yeah,

Rich: correct. Yeah, correct. All right.

Catelin: Get to her. Should we get to the last word?

Rich: Last word. I see what you did there.

Rich: We'll see.

Catelin: We'll see.

Rich: Ugly Lee. Oh, Jesus. Yes. Oh, I've used that like since you and I had that conversation about like Legion doesn't have to be ugly. Yeah. Um, I've used that in so many like pitches that we've done and just talking to so many people and everybody gets it. Everybody's like, Oh yeah, direct mail is always ugly and email is always ugly.

Catelin: But it's because it's the thing where it's like, everything is important where they're like, just like, Trying to throw as much, instead of having like a well defined message and a call to action that's like very succinct, it's like, well, let's just shotgun method and see what sticks, you know, it's like, just like, distill that.

Catelin: How big do I have to

Jesse: make this button to make people click on it?

Catelin: Yeah.

Jesse: Smaller.

Catelin: Yeah.

Jesse: Smaller.

Catelin: People know how to run the internet now. Yeah. Button

Rich: doesn't need to be full width and six inches tall. All correct and true.

Catelin: How many times am I going to have the, like, when everything is important, nothing is important conversation.

Catelin: It's just like, and it keeps happening. It keeps coming back around. And I think, but that's like a salient thing that people can understand when it's like, okay, you got to pick. You can't, it can't all be the best.

Rich: Yeah. You hope that people could understand that. Um, but like, it's really hard. Like when you tell people things like, Oh, your landing page should have basically three things you want people to do, but one of them is the biggest and they all relate to each other.

Rich: And the number two and number three are only if they absolutely won't do your number one. Which is usually fill out a form.

Catelin: Um,

Rich: But like our landing pages have like schedule a meeting, like, cause I'll take a meeting instead of a form. Sure. That's great. And then you can follow us on social, which makes Zach happy.

Rich: He gets new numbers, but it doesn't do a lot for us except maybe we can stay in front of you with all that content we work so hard to put out. Um,

Catelin: and you can see how fun and funny we are. I think that's where we really shine on social. This is, this is a tangent, but you know,

Rich: kind of, I think I would agree when, um, it's funny when I was teaching this last semester, um, I got banner ads from all the students and there was no call to action whatsoever on any banner ad.

Rich: They were basically like just, you know,

Catelin: Like awareness or like informant. I mean, like, I guess, but

Rich: it's like, but I'm like, you want them to do something. They're like, uh huh. Like we want them to go and sign up for a course or like to request more information. Did you

Catelin: tell them that?

Rich: Yeah. I'm like, you need to, you need to make it really clear what you want them to do.

Rich: So put a little, put a fake button on there with some words on it that tell them, like, learn more. Sign up now. Like, and they were like,

Catelin: Oh,

Rich: I was just like, Oh my God. Um, but yeah, it's

Catelin: educating the masses.

Rich: Well, and I think learning that as a student, great when you're a seasoned marketer and you're making those same mistakes and I have seen it.

Rich: It's like, come on.

Catelin: Yeah. Well, and I think like sometimes you just get in your own way too. We have that sometimes with clients where they're like, Oh no, one person told me that this was a good idea. And, and I have spent the last like two weeks being like, that's not a good idea. Anything you

Zac: have to be flexible.

Zac: Like if you get hyper focused on one thing and you're a hundred percent sure it's going to work, you're setting yourself up for major disappointment. Right.

Rich: Yeah, we need this three minute about us autoplay video with audio in our header and it's like no you don't You know who that was Correct

Catelin: I think the other takeaway from this is that Jesse and Megan are probably two of my favorite artists and like, they're, they're good at, they're good at making lead gen cute.

Rich: And they're not as temperamental as a lot of artists can be. Correct. They have their moments. There are moments where you get the, ugh. But it's like, okay, I've clearly taken this too far and frustrated you. We'll, we'll come back. Uh, we'll come back around tomorrow, but, um, no, yeah. And I think that that's the thing, like everything is well branded with a clear message and a clear request, a clear call to action, like that's going to be good lead gen and it doesn't have to be a giant postcard.

Rich: You don't have to list your entire product offering on

Catelin: it.

Rich: You just have to grab attention and tell them what to do. And if you've targeted it, right. They'll

Catelin: do it. And optimized, right? Yeah. All of which we can help with.

Rich: We can. We're really not salesy in these, are we? We could be, but it's kind of gross.

Catelin: It's not really my bag either.

Rich: No, yeah. So I think we did it. We got the Mai Tai, we got the double shot of Jungle Bird, the aviation, and the last word, and that's five.

Catelin: Cheers. If you'd like to, uh, yeah, if you'd like to see more of our weird content, you can find us at antidote underscore. And if you have a question that you'd like to send our way, you can head to ctapodcast.

Catelin: live to send us a message. And I will just continue pleading with people to please leave us a voice message on our hotline 402 718 9999. Your question or comment will make it into a future episode.

Rich: Yeah. We've had like 32 hangups, like, so I'm just assuming those are people who are just so scared to talk to us and not spammers.

Rich: They're all spammers. We're

Catelin: friendly and kind, and I would love to hear from you. I might even call you back.

Rich: Oh, wow. I didn't even think about that. Um, that would be wild. Yikes. All right. So we will have another episode in a couple of weeks as well. Stay tuned and watch our socials to figure out what that is.

Rich: Um, we don't even know, have the content plan in front of me, so I'm not sure what that one is. It's going to be a surprise, but there will be a cocktail. There will be some sort of marketing question or commentary and, uh, there will certainly be a lot of tangents.

Catelin: That's correct. But in that order, we're the cat podcast.

Rich: Oh, I mean, that would make Riley happy. Alright, so there'll be cocktails, there'll be a ton of tangents, and then we'll get to marketing answers for you as well. We

Catelin: can't wait.